A Senator, a Judge & Four Women in Recovery: Breaking Ireland’s Cycle of Addiction and Prison

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of

[00:00:02] This is HCD.

[00:00:03] Gerry Scullion: My name is

[00:00:04] Gerry

[00:00:05] Scullion

[00:00:05] Gerry Scullion: and I'm a human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland. And

[00:00:10] today on the show we've got a really special episode for you. We've done something that we've never done before.

[00:00:14] Gerry Scullion: We

[00:00:15] have a six person podcast that was recorded recently live in Dublin

[00:00:20] city center in house for anyone who's from Dublin. And it's something like we've never done before. You just said,

[00:00:25] 'cause you're gonna hear from a group of remarkable people whose lives have been shaped by addiction,

[00:00:30] crime, prison, and recovery.

[00:00:32] Gerry Scullion: Now, some of the stories you'll hear involve crimes that

[00:00:35] left lasting pain from victims and families. And we want to be absolutely clear before you

[00:00:40] listen to this episode that we do not condone crimes in any shape or form, but what we are

[00:00:45] exploring here is the possibility of change of rehabilitation and of second and

[00:00:50] even third and fourth chances in life.

[00:00:52] Gerry Scullion: It's a remarkable one. And joining in this

[00:00:55] episode is Senator Aubrey McCarthy, one of the driving forces behind Tigand,

[00:01:00] an organization in Ireland that provides life-changing recovery programs for people trapped in

[00:01:05] cycles of addiction and homelessness. Now, sitting beside him on the episode is

[00:01:10] former District Court Judge Gillian Hussey, now one of the first female

[00:01:15] judges in Arnold's criminal courts.

[00:01:16] Gerry Scullion: And Judge Hussey's once sentenced one of the women

[00:01:20] in, uh, at that very table that you're gonna see two prison. And yet today they sit

[00:01:25] together as equals, reflecting on what compassion and justice really looks like.

[00:01:30] We talk about recidivism, we talk about lots of interesting facts, and I've wanted to ask some

[00:01:35] questions to a judge actually, just around what the metrics are for

[00:01:40] success for judges in the criminal situations.

[00:01:42] Gerry Scullion: Now, you'll also hear from Ruthanne now a sports

[00:01:45] and wellbeing coach and a strong advocate for women in the JU Justice system. He'll hear from

[00:01:50] Brona who leads social inclusion with homeless communities, ed, who guides women through

[00:01:55] treat treatment and recovery, and Jenny, who supports families healing alongside loved ones in

[00:02:00] addiction recovery.

[00:02:01] Gerry Scullion: This is a conversation about trauma stigma and systemic

[00:02:05] failings, but it's also about hope, dignity, and the extraordinary resilience of people

[00:02:10] when they're given the right support and the right ecosystem. There's three key takeaways in this, okay?

[00:02:15] First one is trauma. And the environment. That plays a huge role in shaping lives,

[00:02:20] but connection and community and the right interventions can break cycles of addiction.

[00:02:24] Gerry Scullion: I'm gonna talk about

[00:02:25] compassionate justice and how it has the power to transform outcomes. And Judge Hussey's

[00:02:30] story shows just what happens when people are seen as humans First.

[00:02:35] Last one that'll ask. Key takeaway from me is recovery is

[00:02:40] possible. And not just surviving, but thriving, finding joy, purpose, and really

[00:02:45] becoming advocates for others.

[00:02:46] Gerry Scullion: If you enjoy this episode, please do take a chance to subscribe,

[00:02:50] share the episode with somebody who might benefit from hearing it and leave us a review using the link in the

[00:02:55] show notes. It's one of the best ways for you to keep in touch with everything that we do. Here at this is HCD.

[00:03:00] Again, a big shout out to Alan Bobak as well, who was key in setting this, uh, this

[00:03:05] episode up.

[00:03:05] Gerry Scullion: It's a remarkable one. I know you're gonna enjoy it. Let's jump straight in,

[00:03:10]

[00:03:15]

[00:03:18] Gerry Scullion: folks. I'm delighted to have you

[00:03:20] here. Um, very warm. Welcome to an episode of This is HCD. Maybe we'll start off

[00:03:25] by introducing ourselves, just a short name and you know what you do and

[00:03:30] we'll start with Mr. Senator Obby McCarthy.

[00:03:32] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: So my name is Aubrey and um,

[00:03:35] I've. Helped set up an organization called TIG Lin many years ago with the inspiration

[00:03:40] of Judge Gillian Hussy, who's beside me.

[00:03:42] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And today, uh, we're meeting up with women

[00:03:45] who are advocates for people in addiction. They're peers in society, and I think I'm excited

[00:03:50] about today. Yeah, absolutely. Gillian.

[00:03:52] Gillian Hussey: Uh, I'm Gillian Hussey. I was a,

[00:03:55] a district court judge, one of the first women

[00:04:00] judges to be sent to the criminal courts. And, uh, I

[00:04:05] learned a lot.

[00:04:06] Gerry Scullion: I'm sure you did. I we learned a lot more today by, and I

[00:04:09] Gillian Hussey:

[00:04:10] met a lot of these ladies. Yes. As, as, as young ladies.

[00:04:13] Gerry Scullion: That's awesome.

[00:04:15]

[00:04:15] Ruthann Barry: So I am Ruth Dan. I work for Dublin City Council and

[00:04:20] NEIC as a sports and wellbeing coach. And I also work with Department of

[00:04:25] Justice. Probation, um, pace and in the

[00:04:30] criminal justice sector.

[00:04:31] Ruthann Barry: And I'm a massive advocate for women who have went

[00:04:35] through the criminal justice system system. Yes. Fantastic.

[00:04:39] Bronagh McBrien: My

[00:04:40] name's Brown and McBrien. Um, I am currently working with T Glen. I was given the

[00:04:45] opportunity in, at the start of last year to to, to come on board and

[00:04:50] develop a role, a social inclusion role covering the South Dublin

[00:04:55] Wicklow area.

[00:04:55] Bronagh McBrien: So. I've developed that role. It's up and running now, and it's

[00:05:00] been such a huge benefit to the, the cohort of homeless people that I work with, the

[00:05:05] hospitals, the services, anti Glen as well. Um, I am, I've

[00:05:10] lived experience, so it's an area I'm very familiar with. I've worked in homeless services for many

[00:05:15] years and now I have the privilege of being able to set tables like this with

[00:05:20] people and make, um, more of a difference and more of an impact rather than just helping all

[00:05:25] the time, you know, just to actually be a voice.

[00:05:27] Gerry Scullion: Fantastic. Yeah. Great to have your,

[00:05:29] uh,

[00:05:30] yeah. My name is Edie. Um, I work in the Lighthouse. I'm the community

[00:05:35] employment supervisor, but I also do assessments and care plans for women going into

[00:05:40] treatment. And I run through two groups, two pre-entry groups,

[00:05:45] one for the men and one for the women and them groups is to prepare them for TLE

[00:05:50] in.

[00:05:50] It's giving them all the information, you know, what to expect when they go in and then see

[00:05:55] where they're at. And then if they need any further support as well, it's a, it's

[00:06:00] a place for them to come and, uh, feel support.

[00:06:03] Gerry Scullion: Brilliant. Great to have you, Edie. Thanks.

[00:06:05]

[00:06:05] Jenny Harris: Hey, my name is Jenny. Um, I've also come through the tiging

[00:06:10] program.

[00:06:10] Jenny Harris: I now work for Family Support and tiging. So what

[00:06:15] that entails is I'd have the family support phone, we hold family support meetings

[00:06:20] because this isn't only a journey for us, this is for families. Families need to heal as well. Yeah.

[00:06:25] It's, it's a long journey and it's, it's so rewarding when you going in and sitting there meetings, you know,

[00:06:30] like, and families are there and yeah, it's, it's, it's an amazing job.

[00:06:34] Jenny Harris: Like,

[00:06:35] so I love what I do. Yeah, it's brilliant to have here.

[00:06:37] Gerry Scullion: Thanks. I'll start off with Alby. The first

[00:06:40] question, like when we spoke there a number of weeks at Lanster house, we were talking about why this is so important

[00:06:45] to have these conversations. Typically, I do a podcast and I might interview anyone, anyone of you

[00:06:50] at this table, one on one, but the power of the collective is something I'm really interested in, but.

[00:06:55]

[00:06:55] Gerry Scullion: I'd love to understand a little bit more why you feel that this story should be shared like this.

[00:06:59] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I

[00:07:00] grew up with addiction in my own family. I know how addiction can be like a

[00:07:05] grenade. It's thrown into the family home. Everything it gets thrown apart. Your parents, your kids,

[00:07:10] your education, your health, everything.

[00:07:12] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: So that inspired me to

[00:07:15] help set up tingly. I met this amazing woman and, uh, we, we, we always flag each

[00:07:20] other. She's an amazing sense of humor. She's a wicked sense of humor, but I will say, um,

[00:07:25] judge Gillian tells everybody I met her on Tinder, and that's not true at all, but I'm not here. We're

[00:07:30] going, Kathy said, but I will say what she inspired.

[00:07:35]

[00:07:35] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: She spoke one night, 20 years ago when I was in Plantar Castle, and she spoke about we

[00:07:40] need to do more as a society. And she had another girl with her called Jillian. Who had

[00:07:45] been through the prison system, the court system, and Gillian gave her a chance and nearly mentored

[00:07:50] her. And that woman today is, you know, kicking the ball outta the park.

[00:07:53] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I thought that was

[00:07:55] unusual. I approached Judge Gillian, I said, I want to help. I wanna see what we can do. And they would agree,

[00:08:00] shoots for TIG Lynn. But recently, a couple of weeks ago, we all went to

[00:08:05] dinner in Lester House with Judge Gillian. And um, um, I don't think

[00:08:10] Jennifer was there because she hasn't got good table manners, but the rest of you were there.

[00:08:13] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And I

[00:08:15] will say it showed me that these women are inspirational. So not only did it start with an

[00:08:20] inspiration, but every one of the women that I met that have come to Tling that have appeared before the bench,

[00:08:25] these girls are advocate peers and they are absolutely inspiring.

[00:08:29] Gerry Scullion:

[00:08:30] So Jillian, your name has been mentioned the most so far in, uh, in the podcast.

[00:08:35]

[00:08:35] Gerry Scullion: Talk to me a little bit more around your experience with women in addiction in this country.

[00:08:40]

[00:08:40] Gillian Hussey: Well, I started off. Not with women in

[00:08:45] addiction or anyone in addiction. I hadn't a clue.

[00:08:48] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:08:49] Gillian Hussey:

[00:08:50] I remember I had a daughter of 14 when I was appointed to the bench,

[00:08:55] but I was appointed to the bench on the civil side.

[00:08:59] Gillian Hussey: Okay. Ladies

[00:09:00] didn't do crime and certainly ladies did not go into the criminal courts.

[00:09:05] And the only recollection I have as a, as a, as a law student

[00:09:10] of criminal work was it had a book with a red cover and what was

[00:09:15] in that book? I haven't, to this day, I haven't a, not

[00:09:20] because it wasn't going to bother me because women didn't do crime,

[00:09:25] and about two years after I'm appointed on the civil side, I,

[00:09:30] my president, who unfortunately is dead many, many years, because

[00:09:35] I'd love to have asked him a question, which I hadn't the, the

[00:09:40] intelligence to ask him at the time.

[00:09:41] Gillian Hussey: What the hell made him send me over to the bright one

[00:09:45] because it was a terrible, terrible chance. Yeah. And it

[00:09:50] turned out to be, as far as I'm concerned, a rip roaring success. Right.

[00:09:55] Because I learned so much from the people who stood

[00:10:00] before me.

[00:10:00] Gerry Scullion: And how long were you in Bridewell? How long were you? Um,

[00:10:03] Gillian Hussey: I was about,

[00:10:05] about suppose about a year or so.

[00:10:08] Gillian Hussey: Okay. In the Bridewell.

[00:10:10] Now I had two male colleagues and they didn't like me

[00:10:15] because I didn't lock 'em all up. Lock 'em up, lock 'em up, lock

[00:10:20] 'em up, was their motto. And at that stage, I, I have to tell

[00:10:25] you this because it's true, but they,

[00:10:30] the, the judges were just about getting used to each other and they were

[00:10:35] having what they called lunches together.

[00:10:38] Gillian Hussey: And I went to

[00:10:40] lunch. With these two judges twice. And

[00:10:45] on both occasions, one of them, the one that was married to an ex nun,

[00:10:50] starts to grop me.

[00:10:52] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Grop

[00:10:53] Gillian Hussey: me. He groped me on both

[00:10:55] occasions. And I to this day have never been to a lunch with the

[00:11:00] district judges or any judges ever since. Right. Because I didn't

[00:11:05] think that's the place that I should be.

[00:11:07] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Jerry, can I just say, at that time

[00:11:10] you were a maverick 'cause women judges weren't, weren't the norm.

[00:11:14] Gillian Hussey: Absolutely.

[00:11:15] Oh, they weren't? No. Oh, they weren't the norm. But that's what women were for, to be groped and, uh, I

[00:11:20] wasn't going to be grouped so I didn't go to lunch.

[00:11:22] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I understand. So what if

[00:11:25] we just look it up from the addiction perspective when we look at, you know, I guess

[00:11:30] Lin's role within the justice system,

[00:11:32] Gillian Hussey: but now Lin came after that.

[00:11:33] Gillian Hussey: After that,

[00:11:35] well, I, I should say that. When I went on the criminal side

[00:11:38] Gerry Scullion: mm-hmm.

[00:11:38] Gillian Hussey: I had a daughter of

[00:11:40] 14, and she said to me, but come into

[00:11:45] Grafton Street any Saturday and you can smell the drugs. But I said, I know nothing

[00:11:50] about drugs. Anyhow, she didn't realize I had a sense of smell anyhow.

[00:11:55] But,

[00:11:56] Gerry Scullion: uh, and what period would this be?

[00:11:57] Gerry Scullion: Would this be in the eighties?

[00:11:59] Gillian Hussey: It

[00:12:00] would've been in in the eighties. Well, it would've been, so

[00:12:02] Gerry Scullion: a huge recession

[00:12:03] Gillian Hussey: in, it would've been 80

[00:12:05] heroin. 80, 80, 85. Yeah. Anyhow, the,

[00:12:10] the two judges who didn't like me, uh, had

[00:12:15] great friendship with the new judge of the district court. Mm-hmm. President of the district court.

[00:12:20]

[00:12:20] Gillian Hussey: And they, and they, they persuaded the new president

[00:12:24] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:12:24] Gillian Hussey: To

[00:12:25] send me outta the bride, take me outta there for heaven's sake. Take me outta there. So he, he

[00:12:30] sent me up to the K Maum court, which actually was a busier court than ever. And I

[00:12:35] spent the rest of my days ham, and I learned so much. And I

[00:12:40] met so many people, and including this girl, Jillian, whom I met

[00:12:45] actually about two weeks ago.

[00:12:46] Gillian Hussey: Lovely. And she's turned out to be a lovely, lovely, lovely girl.

[00:12:50]

[00:12:50] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:12:51] Gillian Hussey: And I,

[00:12:55] she, she was a total alcoholic at the age of 17.

[00:12:57] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:12:59] Gillian Hussey: And

[00:13:00] she was always being brought into the court. And, uh, I,

[00:13:05] I del I dealt with her without putting her in, in, in

[00:13:10] custody. But anyhow, this particular day I was coming up to

[00:13:15] my retirement, but I didn't tell her that wasn't her business.

[00:13:18] Gillian Hussey: And about three weeks from my

[00:13:20] retirement, and I, uh, her, her mother came up

[00:13:25] this aisle and she came up the other aisle attached to a guard that she was in custody and the

[00:13:30] mother was roaring crying. Please, please do something with her. I said, okay, I will.

[00:13:35] And I turned to the mother and I said, well, I'll tell you what is it for the next seven days and seven nights you'll know where she is.

[00:13:40]

[00:13:40] Gillian Hussey: And I turned to Madam and I said, and madam, you will be in the women's prison for seven days and seven nights

[00:13:45] and you can tell me what it's like. So seven days later she came back, she said, I'm going to change

[00:13:50] my life. What? I said, it's entirely up to you. It's not up to me.

[00:13:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:13:55] Can I ask a question like, so what role this is for everyone at the table here, like what

[00:14:00] role did environment, relationships and circumstances play in the addiction

[00:14:05] process?

[00:14:05] Gerry Scullion: So like I'd love your perspective on this as well, Jillian. Maybe after some other

[00:14:10] people can answer. You've experienced lots of people over the years

[00:14:15] that have come in front of you, but to get your perspective, but maybe I'll put it to some of, I

[00:14:20] actually grew

[00:14:20] Jenny Harris: up with Jillian. Did the Jillian that you're speaking about.

[00:14:23] Jenny Harris: Yeah. And I met her a couple of weeks going and It's

[00:14:25] amazing. Yeah. You know, and then she was so happy to see me coming through to Lynn 'cause we would've all

[00:14:30] drank together and parted together and, yeah. So small world, you know that

[00:14:33] Gerry Scullion: other Jillian?

[00:14:34] Jenny Harris: I do. Yeah.

[00:14:35]

[00:14:35] Ruthann Barry: But going back to row has a massive part to play.

[00:14:37] Ruthann Barry: Yeah. Which one? In, in your environment

[00:14:40] that you grow up in. Yeah. Um, because if there is,

[00:14:45] they say that addiction doesn't come through genes. It, it

[00:14:50] comes through different factors of your environment and the trauma that you endure.

[00:14:55] So if you're coming from, uh, an environment

[00:15:00] that there is alcoholism and there is addiction and there is

[00:15:05] abuse in different forms, well then there's a higher factor

[00:15:10] that you might go into addiction.

[00:15:12] Ruthann Barry: Not in all cases. Yeah. Um,

[00:15:15]

[00:15:16] Gerry Scullion: it can play a role.

[00:15:17] Ruthann Barry: Yeah. It can play a massive role.

[00:15:20]

[00:15:20] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: What about, I often found Jerry, just from talking to different people that have done the TIG in program,

[00:15:25] you're dealing with a guy, let's say, I remember one guy, he was. He was the top

[00:15:30] criminal on the East coast. That's what the papers used to say.

[00:15:32] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And um, so when he came into Tig Lin, I

[00:15:35] wanted to meet him and have a coffee. So we sat down and he was now 27, 28. And

[00:15:40] I wanted to know what, what makes this guy so hard and so difficult to deal with?

[00:15:45] And, um, his, it turns out his father had been killed in a car crash. He was six years

[00:15:50] of age seven. And, um, his mother started to drink heavily.

[00:15:54] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And so she

[00:15:55] then had different guys coming into the house. He was six, seven years of age. They used to come in

[00:16:00] and, um, shout roar, maybe give him a clatter. And he used to wet the bed. So his mother

[00:16:05] used to come home and check whether he wet the bed after the pub, after she'd come home from the pub. If he did,

[00:16:10] she'd get his face and wipe it around the inside of the toilet bowl.

[00:16:13] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Okay? Now you've got a

[00:16:15] kid who's 7, 8, 9, growing up with this. And what he used to do is he used to get his school

[00:16:20] bag in his school uniform. And when the mom used to come into the house at 12 o'clock, one o'clock in the morning, he used to

[00:16:25] get out the window and walk around the local town. Until school started in the morning.

[00:16:29] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: So now

[00:16:30] you've got a kid who's 27 years of age coming into rehab, but you don't, you've got the seven, eight,

[00:16:35] 9-year-old kid who's, whose environment and trauma and, um,

[00:16:40] connections gave him no hope. So therefore, he ended up in addiction. And I think we've discussed this, ed

[00:16:45] deals with people brona every day of the week who have come from environments whereby

[00:16:50] they had never an opportunity, no direction.

[00:16:52] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And also relationships can be, can be

[00:16:55] terrible if you're in, if you are a fella, he starts using gear, starts using drugs or whatever.

[00:17:00] It can often be an avenue. Would that be fair to say? We are often a

[00:17:03] Ruthann Barry: product of our environment.

[00:17:05] Um, like I would've came from a violent background

[00:17:10] and there was alcoholism and like that when my

[00:17:15] sister was killed.

[00:17:16] Ruthann Barry: It, I, I suppose the

[00:17:20] dynamics of the family completely changed. Yeah. You know, we changed as people, my

[00:17:25] parents changed. Of who they were. Yeah. You know, they weren't the same people

[00:17:30] after my sister. It was a traumatic event. And not long after that,

[00:17:35] I start, you know, experimenting in different things like tip X

[00:17:40] tens in school.

[00:17:40] Ruthann Barry: Yeah. And, and, and then it progressed through the years. Yeah. But

[00:17:45] it was to deal with all that pain

[00:17:50] and suppress all that a hundred percent. You know what

[00:17:52] Gerry Scullion: I'm hearing though, and is from my work in Australia as

[00:17:55] well, when people fall into addiction, it's, they're, they're asking for

[00:18:00] help. Like they're asking for a service there to really provide that, that care.

[00:18:05]

[00:18:05] Gerry Scullion: But unfortunately, the punitive nature of government, it wasn't, they don't, they're not able to

[00:18:10] provide it. They just don't provide it. It's very much like you've done a crime straight into somewhere that's potentially

[00:18:15] worse.

[00:18:15] Ruthann Barry: So that, that is actually. It's slightly changing at the moment. Okay.

[00:18:20] Because I am part of dealing that.

[00:18:22] Ruthann Barry: So I'm someone with lived experience of the criminal justice

[00:18:25] system. I also came up in front of Judge Gillian Hussey as well. What was she like?

[00:18:30] Come on. See, I had heard, so sorry, Gillian to know. Sorry Gillian.

[00:18:35] I had heard so much about her before I went up and I was actually terrified.

[00:18:40] I was terrified.

[00:18:42] Ruthann Barry: What did you heard at that point? Oh, she had

[00:18:44] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: a huge

[00:18:45] reputation

[00:18:45] Ruthann Barry: that she like was harsh. Like could be harsh, you

[00:18:50] know, and, and I suppose as he said, a maverick.

[00:18:55] You know, there wasn't women judges, but she did give me the opportunity to get

[00:19:00] into a treatment place. There wasn't availability at that stage. So I did

[00:19:05] end up getting onto a treatment program.

[00:19:08] Ruthann Barry: Was this pre t? This is pre

[00:19:09] Gerry Scullion: Tling,

[00:19:10] yeah.

[00:19:10] Ruthann Barry: My methadone program. So where was that?

[00:19:12] Gerry Scullion: Who owned that program?

[00:19:13] Ruthann Barry: It was a methadone

[00:19:15] program in AM Street. It's still there. It's a clinic. It's still there now. So like, um,

[00:19:20] I got on that and instead of just being on heroin,

[00:19:25] you know, HC that Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that was

[00:19:30] me and I, I was.

[00:19:31] Ruthann Barry: Just on the methadone for a while, but then it, yeah,

[00:19:35] intensified then When was that? In the early two thousands? Oh, no, that was

[00:19:40]

[00:19:40] Gerry Scullion: 2000 tens.

[00:19:41] Ruthann Barry: No, I think it was like 99.

[00:19:43] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Right. Maybe.

[00:19:45] So you came in front of, uh, judge Gillian Hussy. And what was the outcome of that?

[00:19:50] Um, first encounter

[00:19:52] Ruthann Barry: I got,

[00:19:55] um, a suspended sentence because I got onto a treatment program.

[00:19:58] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Brilliant.

[00:20:00] So, Jillian, what are the factors there that, it sounds like you were able to apply some sort of

[00:20:05] compassion and think holistically to the outcome, ultimately, what

[00:20:10] organizations are trying to achieve. We're trying to think of,

[00:20:12] Gillian Hussey: well, first of all, as, as Ruthanne says,

[00:20:15] the amount of treatment centers was that much.

[00:20:20]

[00:20:20] Gerry Scullion: Say that again.

[00:20:21] Gillian Hussey: The amount of treatment centers available at that stage.

[00:20:25] They have that much Wow. And. Uh, it was, it was, it was very, very

[00:20:30] sad. Yeah. Because I had no, I had no say

[00:20:35] over so much because there was nobody, not think, nothing there to send them to. Yeah.

[00:20:40] Uh, but I, I do remember that place on street.

[00:20:42] Gillian Hussey: I, I'd never in it and was must I, but,

[00:20:45] uh, I,

[00:20:50] I, I tried as best, I best I could,

[00:20:55] but there was nobody, nobody there. I used to go around a couple of treatment centers

[00:21:00] where they, they had resident people and.

[00:21:05] I would visit there on a, on a regular, regular basis.

[00:21:10] And it was actually through one of those, uh, that

[00:21:15] I went down and I, I discovered that,

[00:21:20] uh, they had no treatment center or men to go to

[00:21:25] resident treatment center for Otto.

[00:21:27] Gillian Hussey: And it because of that,

[00:21:30] that I said what I said, but I have to say I was well, well,

[00:21:35] well retired. That was what, 2008 was it? Was it 2000?

[00:21:40] Oh,

[00:21:40] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: no, it was before 2006. I'd say.

[00:21:41] Gillian Hussey: No. No it wasn't. No, because we

[00:21:43] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: bought TIG in 2008.

[00:21:44] Gillian Hussey:

[00:21:45] Well, the, I'm sorry, but

[00:21:47] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I, I,

[00:21:47] Gillian Hussey: I reckon it was 2010, but you said it was eight?

[00:21:50] Yeah. 'cause we bought it

[00:21:51] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: to, in 2008.

[00:21:52] Gillian Hussey: Yeah. Well, I You bought it only days

[00:21:55] after. Mm-hmm. I made the comment, I made with this other, with this other

[00:22:00] Jillian, who I met only a couple of weeks ago, and she, she turned out to be a wonderful, wonderful girl

[00:22:05] and a wonderful mother of four.

[00:22:06] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And I remember when she made that comment at the Clon Half Castle.

[00:22:09] Senator Aubrey McCarthy:

[00:22:10] She, um, uh, I had, was doing a charity auction and I didn't know any of these people. I didn't

[00:22:15] know much about drugs, I knew about alcohol addiction. And, um, Jillian Hasse, the judge

[00:22:20] came up afterwards and she had the reputation, you know, she was tough. Roth Weiler would've been friendlier.

[00:22:25] So she came up to me afterwards and she just said, um, may I tell you a young man, you're the

[00:22:30] rudest person I've ever met.

[00:22:31] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Make sure you never lose that talent. And then she walks off. So I was like, is

[00:22:35] that good or bad? So after that, we became the best of friends and then she started to, like, for

[00:22:40] example, Edie, who's sitting here, Edie's family members who would've appeared before Judge

[00:22:45] Gillian are now friends with Judge. And you

[00:22:46] know, I always remember because

[00:22:50] everybody knew who Hussy was.

[00:22:51] Everybody. And I remember, 'cause I used to be up in the court

[00:22:55] a few times, but I was up in Kum court and all you hear was, you are up,

[00:23:00] you are up against Hussy. Oh, good luck to you. You are going down. And I remember

[00:23:05] walking into the court and I seen Jillian and I looked at her and I went, oh my

[00:23:10] God. She looked serious.

[00:23:12] And I said to myself, I would like to be ever up

[00:23:15] against her. She, you just had that real, that real, don't mess with me. It was,

[00:23:19] Gillian Hussey:

[00:23:20] it was extraordinary, the reputation that I developed. But you know, it's

[00:23:25] amazing because

[00:23:26] Jenny Harris: yeah,

[00:23:26] Gillian Hussey: I don't know any other judge that has many

[00:23:30] as many. Friends that has lunch or coffee or whatever.

[00:23:34] Gillian Hussey: Yeah.

[00:23:35] With people who have gone through addiction centers.

[00:23:38] Gerry Scullion: Amazing. Can I ask a

[00:23:40] question? Uh, Jane, something I wanted to know for a while. What, what are judges

[00:23:45] measured on? Sorry, what? What are they measured on? Like what, what's,

[00:23:50] what's the metric of, of a good judge in your eyes?

[00:23:52] Gillian Hussey: I have no idea. No idea.

[00:23:55] Uh, I don't think I would've ever lived up to being a good judge.

[00:23:59] Gillian Hussey: Well, obviously

[00:24:00] we're, we're talking

[00:24:01] Gerry Scullion: here today like some, yeah.

[00:24:02] Gillian Hussey: But it's, it's,

[00:24:05] it's a strange thing. But I've met, I, I mean, I'm still

[00:24:10] very friendly with people. Only about a month ago, I was driven to

[00:24:15] tmore by a man.

[00:24:17] Gerry Scullion: Sorry about that. Paul.

[00:24:20]

[00:24:20] Gillian Hussey: Paul, a man who appeared before me, God knows how many times

[00:24:25] and. Uh, we have lunch together on a regular

[00:24:30] basis.

[00:24:30] Gillian Hussey: And he had, she was

[00:24:31] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: on the Late, late show recently.

[00:24:33] Gillian Hussey: No, it wasn't on what with

[00:24:35] him? What's her name? It was him. Yes. That was a long, long time ago.

[00:24:40] I on something else. Oh, I was Tommy Tiernan as well. Tommy Tier caused me to write a

[00:24:45] book. Uh, but, uh, I,

[00:24:50] I, I had one thing that I think when I look back on it now,

[00:24:55] 'cause I hadn't a clue what I was doing.

[00:24:56] Gillian Hussey: I honest the truth. Uh, I was just trying to be careful.

[00:24:59] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Gillian Hussey: Because I knew there weren't many women around and wasn't going to

[00:25:05] be a good reputation for the women. But one of the things I did was

[00:25:10] I accepted in my own self that I didn't know a

[00:25:15] thing about crime or what, how these people got into crime or whatever.

[00:25:20]

[00:25:21] Gillian Hussey: And I went, and the, the structure of the

[00:25:25] probation service was different in those days. You went to what I, what I call little

[00:25:30] Johnny's house. The the criminal's house. The little, little Johnny's house. The

[00:25:35] probation officer went to little Johnny's house. Perfect. Now,

[00:25:40] if the probation officer doesn't go to little Johnny's house, what the hell does the probation officer know

[00:25:45] about Little Johnny?

[00:25:48] Gillian Hussey: Little Johnny could tell her anything or

[00:25:50] him anything. Yeah. And I have,

[00:25:55] I have four probation officers to this day

[00:26:00] that are good, good friends of mine. We have lunch and I, I, I I, I

[00:26:05] Occasionally, when we have lunch, I'll say, now this is on me. And the

[00:26:10] reason I say it to them is I still owe you that debt of gratitude.

[00:26:13] Gillian Hussey: And that is for years and

[00:26:15] years and years. And they in turn brought me up to

[00:26:20] the governor of then governor of Mount Cho John Lonni.

[00:26:25] And John Ronni again, was, was brought in, not by me, but by the

[00:26:30] people who decided I was going to write a book. And they

[00:26:35] launched my book with John, me and John Ronni again.

[00:26:38] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Jerry, can I just say though,

[00:26:40] the way Jillian, um, sees the individual before the court? Yeah. She sees them.

[00:26:45] She doesn't see an addict. Okay. She sees Jillian from Barry firm, or Jenny or Brona, and she

[00:26:50] sees them as a person. And I've always been astounded by that. And it, we'd go to a

[00:26:55] graduation at Tig Lynn and I'd mention that's Tommy Flaherty.

[00:26:58] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And she'd go,

[00:27:00] oh, that's Timmy's son, Mary's son. She'd know all of them by

[00:27:05] name. Even one guy appeared before her one day in the court and he told

[00:27:10] her a wonderful excuse about how he's engaged in rehabilitation, in cool mind, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:15] She knows Cool mind like the back of her hand. She was on the board of Cool Mind.

[00:27:18] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: She knew your mom was bluffing. So the

[00:27:20] guy appears before he is told a total lie to the judge. She's able to say,

[00:27:25] sorry, young man. Uh, you've appeared before the wrong judge today. So even the guy you've

[00:27:30] mentioned who drove her to Tu Moore, he left her court one day. Um, I think he

[00:27:35] stabbed a police officer, jumped into the Cammack River.

[00:27:37] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I mean, total chaos. They're the best of friends today,

[00:27:40] so it's totally an unusual territory.

[00:27:43] Ruthann Barry: See, I found a difference,

[00:27:45] even though Julian was quite stern from mothers and

[00:27:50] women and people in addiction, she had the compassion and empathy that other

[00:27:55] judges didn't have.

[00:27:56] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Yes, yes, 100%. And to this day, last week, and this is a

[00:28:00] regular occurrence, I got a text on WhatsApp from Jillian, and she's asking me, Aubrey, there's a person in

[00:28:05] trouble here.

[00:28:05] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Can you do something with it? Yeah, she's 99. Um,

[00:28:10] Brona. So Brona deals with these individuals on the East coast every day, so you're dealing

[00:28:15] with before the courts and all the rest. So I think it's wonderful that even the likes of you, you see

[00:28:20] Jillian, uh, did you know Jillian from the courts?

[00:28:22] Bronagh McBrien: Yeah. Um, I, I can, can I say

[00:28:25] it's the first, you're the only judge that I've been before that I'm sitting down having a cup of tea with

[00:28:30] as well, so that, that's a two-way streak, you know?

[00:28:32] Bronagh McBrien: Yeah. Um, and, and to me, I

[00:28:35] think that's, that's a, it's, it's an honor and it's a privilege and I don't say that lightly. And,

[00:28:40] and it's, it's a reflection of a change life as well, that yes, we're sitting at a table in house.

[00:28:45] Um, I cannot, well,

[00:28:46] Gillian Hussey: it's changed my life as well. Yeah. Changed my life

[00:28:50] entirely. Yeah.

[00:28:51] Gerry Scullion: What does it feel like when you're connecting with people that who had

[00:28:55] experiences with in the past?

[00:28:56] Gerry Scullion: I think it's

[00:28:56] Gillian Hussey: wonderful. I just sit here with these people.

[00:29:00] Now, I don't recognize them. It's a long time ago. Oh, she's

[00:29:03] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: had a lot of work done.

[00:29:05]

[00:29:07] Gerry Scullion: Stick quiet. I know. He's, he's, he's an old man. Can I

[00:29:10] ask a question though, about the system? Okay. So where are the failings within the existing

[00:29:15] system?

[00:29:15] Gillian Hussey: Well, now the failings have come since, since my day.

[00:29:18] Gillian Hussey: I, I, I'm retired a long, long

[00:29:20] time now.

[00:29:20] Gerry Scullion: But let's look at the existing system. I know you've got a, you might have as much

[00:29:25] experience, but you've obviously got perspective on what's working, going on. I, one thing that's

[00:29:28] Gillian Hussey: happened since my day.

[00:29:29] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:30]

[00:29:30] Gillian Hussey: I, I retired in two thou April, 2002. Okay.

[00:29:35] And since that, at some stage, I don't know at what stage, uh,

[00:29:40] the probation service doesn't go to little Johnny's house.

[00:29:43] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:29:45]

[00:29:45] Gillian Hussey: Which I think is a complete and utter, I, I can understand how it's happened. What does that give the system

[00:29:50] though, by going to little Johnny's house?

[00:29:52] Gerry Scullion: Well,

[00:29:53] Gillian Hussey: you go to little Johnny's house, you see.

[00:29:55] The conditions that Johnny Little Johnny is living in.

[00:29:57] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:59] Gillian Hussey: I have one,

[00:30:00] one story I'll tell you.

[00:30:01] Gerry Scullion: Let's go.

[00:30:01] Gerry Scullion: Uh,

[00:30:03] Gillian Hussey: I retired and

[00:30:05] I bought a new house and I went down to one of my local stores and I filled in a

[00:30:10] form to get solar panels. I hadn't a clue what solar panels was. This is ago.

[00:30:15] And I filled in this form and I said, look, get me somebody who will come and

[00:30:20] tell me about solar panels. And a couple of days later I got a a

[00:30:25] a what?

[00:30:26] Gillian Hussey: WhatsApp telling me, yes, somebody to come on Thursday,

[00:30:30] tap us two. And then I got a phone call from a girl and I knew she was a young girl by her voice. And she

[00:30:35] said, are you Judge Jill and Jose? I said, yes. Oh, she said,

[00:30:40] my mother loved you. Her mother was from ballet farm.

[00:30:45] I got my solar panels at Rock bottom Price.

[00:30:50]

[00:30:51] Gillian Hussey: Then about two or three years later ago,

[00:30:55] I had one of my probation officer friends text me, she's retired now. She

[00:31:00] was a hell of a lot years and years younger than I was. And she said,

[00:31:05] somebody wants to meet you. Yeah. Can we have lunch? I said, yes, let's have lunch.

[00:31:10] Set up the arrangement. And this man of 53 came in and

[00:31:15] the first thing he said to me was, my mother loved you.

[00:31:18] Gillian Hussey: He was the older,

[00:31:20] much, much older brother of this young girl that had said to

[00:31:25] me, my mother loved you. Uh, they were from ballet for,

[00:31:30] and he had been an addict and he was actually in cool mine, and

[00:31:35] I had to leave Cool Mine because of the story that Aubrey has just told you,

[00:31:40] because Cool. Mine had allowed themselves, unfortunately, through all the wrong

[00:31:45] reasons, lovely, lovely people, but they didn't know a huge amount.

[00:31:50]

[00:31:50] Gillian Hussey: In general about addiction,

[00:31:55] and a lot of the people on the board were parents and so

[00:32:00] on. Mm-hmm. They, they were trying to do the right thing and be nice and so on, but unfortunately they, they

[00:32:05] met somebody that told very good lies and told them very well, so

[00:32:09] Senator Aubrey McCarthy:

[00:32:10] the wrong person,

[00:32:10] Gillian Hussey: and I mean, there was no other court in the country

[00:32:13] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Yeah.

[00:32:14] Gillian Hussey: That, that boy

[00:32:15] could have been, that man could have been brought into by a young guard who I didn't even know who the guard was,

[00:32:20] which was surprising and. I had to ring cool wine and find out, and when I

[00:32:25] found out, I said, look, I'll have to leave the sport. And I left Goodman, I still have the height of respect for cool

[00:32:30] wine.

[00:32:30] Gerry Scullion: So one of the questions I asked earlier about like, what is the metric,

[00:32:35] you know, for a good judge, like how you, you know, kind of measured and like

[00:32:40] is recidivism. Part of that conversation, like reducing re-offended?

[00:32:45] Is that something that is often brought up? I never, I

[00:32:48] Gillian Hussey: never talked to any,

[00:32:50] any, any of my colleagues much about what I did or what I didn't do.

[00:32:53] Gillian Hussey: Right. Mainly

[00:32:55] because there were very, very few women, but they were just giving out to

[00:33:00] me, you know, because they had to look 'em up, lock 'em up, lock them up. This

[00:33:05] is not the way it's done.

[00:33:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. So like, you were ahead of your time, so like there's

[00:33:10] more compassion. I know you're saying like, you got hussy, you're gonna get sent down.

[00:33:14] Gerry Scullion: That's

[00:33:15] not, not what I'm hearing in the full picture. But nobody told,

[00:33:18] Gillian Hussey: nobody told me.

[00:33:19] Gerry Scullion:

[00:33:20] But they were calling you hussy.

[00:33:21] Gillian Hussey: What, what, what They called me. Well, I, I, that fucking

[00:33:25] bitch.

[00:33:27] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Didn't they write that? Do you know, do you know

[00:33:30] Jerry? She didn't they write that in the cell underneath you?

[00:33:33] Gillian Hussey: Yeah. They wrote all sorts of

[00:33:35]

[00:33:35] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: hussy is, and she was brought down to the cell to have a look at it.

[00:33:37] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: She thought it was hilarious. That's fine.

[00:33:40] Did you have the same opinion as, as Ed?

[00:33:42] Bronagh McBrien: Um, yeah. Well I

[00:33:45] remember, um, you, you said something there a minute ago and I just got a bit of a

[00:33:50] flashback of sitting in front of you. It was, it was, it was how you said things. It was a little bit

[00:33:55] terrifying. You, you were just firm.

[00:33:57] Bronagh McBrien: And, um,

[00:34:00] I just got a visual of that there a minute ago. But like, even just to see

[00:34:05] the table now at the moment and the reflection on how many other judges are doing this with people that have

[00:34:10] been through the system. And the key part here is something you mentioned about

[00:34:15] Little Johnny's house and, and what I believe is that that kind of removes the

[00:34:20] bureaucracy

[00:34:20] Gillian Hussey: and it brings in a

[00:34:21] Bronagh McBrien: humanitarian approach.

[00:34:23] Bronagh McBrien: Mm-hmm. And like my, and,

[00:34:25] and I experience it myself constantly because I'm so busy. I'm working in an

[00:34:30] area that there's a huge need. Yeah. Not enough resources. I'm dealing with local authorities.

[00:34:35] HSC hospitals resources are stretched to the max. Yeah. So

[00:34:40] my phone rings and I have a number of appointments that then I'm like, oh no, who's

[00:34:45] this?

[00:34:45] Bronagh McBrien: 'cause I'm so busy and. When I take the call, not

[00:34:50] even going to the house, when I take the call and I hear what's going on for that person, it brings

[00:34:55] me back down to that humanitarian level and it removes the getting it done. Um, and

[00:35:00] even going into environments, I, I'm careful kind of the environments that went into, 'cause I'm long working, but

[00:35:05] I have went into many different environments.

[00:35:06] Bronagh McBrien: I'm sure we all have. And you'd see in the lighthouse,

[00:35:10] I, I was with a, I was with a client yesterday and, you know, there's a lot of

[00:35:15] barriers. It's the bureaucracy trying to get this girl a bit of support. And I sat with her and

[00:35:20] I seen an absolutely broken woman

[00:35:22] Gerry Scullion: mm-hmm. Who's

[00:35:23] Bronagh McBrien: really trying to hold on.

[00:35:24] Bronagh McBrien:

[00:35:25] There's no substance misuse here, you know? Mm-hmm. It's, it's the system that, that she's trying

[00:35:30] to kind of get support from and it's, it's now one person's fault. Yeah.

[00:35:35] This is a result of people who are invested in different areas. Um, you, you

[00:35:40] said earlier on something to do with, um. I can't remember. It was something to do with the

[00:35:45] system.

[00:35:45] Bronagh McBrien: Yeah. And people, but it's, it's like you, you could sit at a table here, like the

[00:35:50] majority of us here, we're all invested into the same. Yeah. And arbery's a, a key, um, you were talking

[00:35:55] about early, earlier on about connection. Or sorry, environment. Environment. Right. So

[00:36:00] the environment is huge factor to play in not only

[00:36:05] substance misuse, but also recovery and even, even prison rehabilitation.

[00:36:08] Bronagh McBrien: It's environment. And

[00:36:10] Tling is, is a real champion for that, especially with the space they give the people when they're coming

[00:36:15] in, they have that space, says connection is the opposite of

[00:36:20] addiction. So gives them that space for that connection. And then it's

[00:36:25] when they leave, is it's a make or break when they leave because then it's.

[00:36:30]

[00:36:30] Bronagh McBrien: The system again, the resources stay, it's the housing afterwards and, and, and

[00:36:35] it's environment. So they're going back into the same environment where they started in,

[00:36:40] through the system in the first place. So the barriers there really need to be looked at. I'm, I'm a

[00:36:45] firm advocate for early intervention in schools.

[00:36:48] Bronagh McBrien: Absolutely. Um,

[00:36:50] connection again is the opposite of addiction and even connection with the children. I

[00:36:55] don, I've done a training course there a while ago about ly and the importance of, um,

[00:37:00] repair and rupture of attachments. So family attachments when there's a rupture with a,

[00:37:05] with a family attachment, um, and how it's important to repair that very quickly.

[00:37:09] Bronagh McBrien: But

[00:37:10] nobody knows this information. Yeah, no. You know, and the system isn't

[00:37:13] Gerry Scullion: set up for it. No. It's,

[00:37:15] it's

[00:37:15] Bronagh McBrien: schools now. It is, it is starting to become a conversation and, and a

[00:37:20] training. And there are schools, certain, certain. How do

[00:37:22] Gerry Scullion: we amplify that?

[00:37:23] Bronagh McBrien: That's a good question.

[00:37:25] This, but I think this is the staff. You a senator to

[00:37:29] Gerry Scullion: bring it.

[00:37:30]

[00:37:30] Ruthann Barry: Yeah. Does anyone know any standard? But you are also saying about the recidivism.

[00:37:34] Gerry Scullion:

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:35] Ruthann Barry: Um, like they have more of a punitive approach

[00:37:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:37:40] still in this country,

[00:37:41] Ruthann Barry: but it, it's starting to become, you have so many different lived

[00:37:45] experience, um, advocates and consultants that are in

[00:37:50] places of policy and strategy and, and different bail supports

[00:37:55] that now they're starting to see that they need that rehabilitative

[00:38:00] approach.

[00:38:01] Ruthann Barry: Um, so example, probation. I'm on

[00:38:05] their advisory panel for creating roles for people with lived experience.

[00:38:09] Gerry Scullion:

[00:38:10] That's really positive.

[00:38:10] Ruthann Barry: Now, some of probation officers, they actually go out on

[00:38:15] runs. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:16] Gillian Hussey: I, I met a probation officer. I was asked, I was asked to open

[00:38:20] a conference in UCD, which wasn't even built in my day.

[00:38:23] Gillian Hussey: Uh, and

[00:38:25] uh, at lunchtime, this two probation officers, two ladies appeared, uh, to talk

[00:38:30] to me and transpired. They came from Cork in Galway. And,

[00:38:35] uh, I said, I believe the probation service has changed now since my day. And I said,

[00:38:40] you know what, what happens? I said, you don't go to little Johnny's house anymore.

[00:38:44] Gillian Hussey: I

[00:38:45] know one of them said to me, I know, but I cheat. And I said, how do you cheat?

[00:38:50] She said, I take him out for coffee. And I said, brilliant, Bob. Absolutely brilliant.

[00:38:55] I mean, can you imagine as somebody going to the probation

[00:39:00] officer's, um, office Yeah. Or going out for coffee.

[00:39:04] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I mean,

[00:39:05]

[00:39:05] Gillian Hussey: the difference for child or young person, it's enormous and

[00:39:09] Ruthann Barry:

[00:39:10] enormous.

[00:39:10] Ruthann Barry: So when we, I was part of the probation, um,

[00:39:15] strategy, so of putting that together and in part of it,

[00:39:20] it was like, how do they better support their clients? Mm. And these kind

[00:39:25] of things. Go for coffee with them, meet them at their home, go for a run.

[00:39:30] My probation officer that I had in prison, I actually brought her back into the Docus

[00:39:35] last week and she took part in the, the color run that um, we

[00:39:40] had in there with the women, like Yeah.

[00:39:41] Ruthann Barry: And I brought in a guard that

[00:39:45] I know from inner city running club and I brought. Um, a lady that

[00:39:50] works in Department of Justice, she's also in nurse. Yeah. And they came in

[00:39:55] and they couldn't believe Yeah. You know, the, the, the

[00:40:00] connection that they got for sure, because they didn't see them as probation guards or department.

[00:40:04] Ruthann Barry: They seen them as

[00:40:05] human. Absolutely. It was a connection. I think that's, that's

[00:40:07] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: huge. I think that's what breaks down the barriers.

[00:40:10] Ruthanne would've come to us through our homeless outreach that Jillian and myself used to

[00:40:15] would do, is called a No Box. Now it's called a Lighthouse, but Ruthanne was a client.

[00:40:19] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: She was going through a very

[00:40:20] dark period. Now I'm in Lester House and I see her in the corridor. She knows every minister, every

[00:40:25] td. She's an advocate for something. Because of her lived experience. I

[00:40:28] Ruthann Barry: really only came down

[00:40:30] 'cause I fancied you all week is see, there we go.

[00:40:33] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: But I think that's what makes the difference.

[00:40:34] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And I, and I

[00:40:35] will say, and Jenny can testify for this, even our outreach, um, I used to bring Jillian

[00:40:40] out, um, to the outreach. And I remember the first time I was saying, I don't know, you are the judge. You put a, probably

[00:40:45] put a lot of these people away. I don't know if it's safe. And she said, no, no, I'll wear a hood or a hat.

[00:40:48] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: So we're walking down Talbot

[00:40:50] Street, right? And the bus is parked around the corner on O'Connell Street. And the bus is a big

[00:40:55] coach. It's got a kitchenette, got couches and the awning and everybody comes feeding about 80

[00:41:00] people a day. And next minute we're walking down Talbot Street and Jillian's there.

[00:41:03] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Next minute I hear

[00:41:05] Zy and, and there's this young lad across the road about

[00:41:10] 30. And he says, you put me away for four years, something like that. And she, she goes

[00:41:15] over to him and she says, and was I right? And he goes. Yeah, I suppose you were, I

[00:41:20] totally disarmed the situation. He came to the bus. So I think one thing

[00:41:25] I have learned is there's equality.

[00:41:27] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Jillian doesn't see any difference between you, me, or

[00:41:30] the fella coming to the bus and are any of the women. And we've always felt equal. And now I

[00:41:35] notice these girls are carrying on what she started so that everybody's equal spread a

[00:41:40] spread and, and even Jenny, you are back in your career. This girl is a phenomenal mother, a phenomenal

[00:41:45] lady in her own career.

[00:41:45] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And I'm just saying she's an example that people can look to. I think the

[00:41:50] eyelashes are, are fake, but everything else is real about Jenny. No, this is all I

[00:41:52] Jenny Harris: grew down myself.

[00:41:53] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Did you? Okay. Well then,

[00:41:55] but, but I will say she's an example of what women need in Ireland. Yeah.

[00:41:59] Jenny Harris: Thank

[00:41:59] Gerry Scullion: you.

[00:41:59] Senator Aubrey McCarthy:

[00:42:00] When we look at the

[00:42:00] Gerry Scullion: barriers that are present in the current system,

[00:42:05] can you talk about your own experience, what those were when you came outta prison,

[00:42:10] um, accessing support services and so forth.

[00:42:13] Gerry Scullion: I'd love to understand a little bit

[00:42:15] more what that experience was like and how. You found Tling and how that all kind of intersected

[00:42:20] with your own life?

[00:42:20] Jenny Harris: Well, for me, I'm just thinking, I have never been up in front of Jillian Hussey. I've, I

[00:42:25] haven't been in prison. Okay. But I've been in a prisoner in my own mind.

[00:42:28] Jenny Harris: Okay. For 20 years I was in

[00:42:30] addiction. So that, that was like tough enough. I may have, I was rather been in prison. Absolutely. I was sucking like a

[00:42:35] back box bedroom, taking drugs, like wanting to take me life every other night of the week.

[00:42:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:42:40] Yeah.

[00:42:40] Jenny Harris: And have an amazing family. It was just a rejection piece on my part.

[00:42:44] Jenny Harris: As a

[00:42:45] youngest child, I just felt put out and pushed aside, and that's how I felt. So

[00:42:50] that's where I looked for love in other places and other areas, which would've been

[00:42:55] drugs, man, everything that comes with that. So

[00:43:00] between prison or being a prisoner in your own mind, it's the same thing to me. Yeah. So that's where my, my piece was the

[00:43:05] rejection piece.

[00:43:05] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:43:06] Jenny Harris: So to come from 20 years, I'd be four years free now from alcohol and drugs and

[00:43:10] it's, it's because of t in, you know, tling. But I got brought. I was

[00:43:15] guided pe God put people in my path. I don't know if this would be a faith-based thing, but he did put people in my

[00:43:20] path. I got brought to an amazing church, Liberty Church.

[00:43:22] Jenny Harris: They led me to TLE in tle in provided a

[00:43:25] space. I only went in, I had, I worked for the HSE for 20 years. I had an amazing

[00:43:30] job, which I left. I went home for 18 months. I went to a family base in B

[00:43:35] Fair and which works with a lot of kids, which helps. They do the door to door, they go

[00:43:40] little, they visit a little Johnny's house, they bring them for food.

[00:43:42] Jenny Harris: Like, I'm just listening around. And that's what you and all

[00:43:45] yourself wrote down from being from B Fair. That's what Family Base does. Yeah. So when I was working there

[00:43:50] for 18 months, I came back on the ce. When I came home to my own daughter, I came

[00:43:55] straight home after completing and graduating the program.

[00:43:57] Gerry Scullion: That's amazing.

[00:43:58] Jenny Harris: I

[00:44:00] noticed that the families need support and I was watching the kids and I actually look at my little daughter now and

[00:44:05] she's 12 and, you know, years ago, I, I'm used to say check, you're gonna have a little one like you. And I,

[00:44:10] it terrifies me. 'cause it like she has little behaviors. I'm like, oh God, she's see

[00:44:15] something like me, Mia.

[00:44:15] Jenny Harris: You know? But it is what it is. But she got her playing to Lynn. She's

[00:44:20] doing amazing. She's thriving. She's a amazing Irish dancing, Irish dancer are,

[00:44:25] um, she's doing really well, but there will be little behaviors there. Yeah. But I continue to work on that.

[00:44:30] So what I do today for myself, it helps her, you know, so if I do the

[00:44:35] right thing today, she's good today, long term.

[00:44:36] Jenny Harris: Do you know? That kind of way. So I came back then to take in, and that's how I

[00:44:40] came into family support.

[00:44:42] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Can I just, is anyone here with any children that maybe went

[00:44:45] into prison? I'd love to understand the perspective. I did. You did? Yeah. I'd love to understand that perspective.

[00:44:50] I have,

[00:44:50] Gillian Hussey: I know a girl and, and you all know her too.

[00:44:54] Gillian Hussey: I just tell that

[00:44:55] like 19 87,

[00:44:56] Gerry Scullion: 19 87,

[00:44:57] Gillian Hussey: I had, and I, I was only, only

[00:45:00] really in my, my learning myself and I was

[00:45:05] in down over in the bridal. Because I think it was in the, no, it must have been. Must've been. Must've

[00:45:10] been up and up in Kum. This young girl, she was 21 or

[00:45:15] 22 in ballet far. Now I didn't, when I went on the bench

[00:45:20] in 85, I didn't know where ballet far was.

[00:45:23] Gillian Hussey: So I learnt a lot between

[00:45:25] that. And 1987 I do where Valley Farm it was, and this youngster,

[00:45:30] young girl. Anyhow, she stood there and she was charged with having 300

[00:45:35] euros worth of cannabis,

[00:45:40] and I said to the solicitor, I am not taking this case.

[00:45:45] She pleaded with me. I said, I'm sorry, I am not taking this case.

[00:45:49] Gillian Hussey: It's going to the

[00:45:50] circuit court if she'd get a much heavier sentence.

[00:45:55] And because of that, then we had to give a remand and she had to have a

[00:46:00] book of evidence served and so on. Her father then went to the solicitor and said.

[00:46:05] What will happen to her when she goes to the circuit court. The solicitor said she'll get a

[00:46:10] sentence.

[00:46:11] Gillian Hussey: So anyhow, she got the book of evidence

[00:46:15] and when the book of evidence was served, the father took her off to England to work with him,

[00:46:20] and the book of Evidence came before the Circuit Court and was no sign

[00:46:25] of her anyhow, warrant issues. And she eventually finally appeared

[00:46:30] and the next time I met her was in Tling.

[00:46:34] Ruthann Barry:

[00:46:35] She's doing amazing.

[00:46:35] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: She's doing amazing. An amazing lady.

[00:46:37] Gillian Hussey: Yeah. An amazing, amazing

[00:46:40] lady. And I have only, yesterday I sent her a text actually. And, uh,

[00:46:45] we're going to hook up. She's, she's now working in Rialto. Mm-hmm. Uh, and

[00:46:50] one day, one day I asked one day there was a launch in Jiggly and,

[00:46:55] and. One of the premises in Gravestones and the president of Ireland and his

[00:47:00] wife were there usual sunny day during COVID.

[00:47:02] Gillian Hussey: And we were outside and I was sitting at the end of the,

[00:47:05] this, uh, steps. I was sitting on a chair and the president

[00:47:10] and his wife came down and they stopped to talk to me. And this lady working for

[00:47:15] LY took a photograph and she sent it to me on my phone

[00:47:20] and she said, you are our, you are our queen.

[00:47:23] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Mm. And it shows the precedent and his

[00:47:25] wife and walking by and gi and S'S sitting, and they, both of them are paying a homage to her

[00:47:30] Brilliant photo.

[00:47:30] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I think I've

[00:47:30] Gerry Scullion: seen the photo. Have you seen it? I think I've seen her online when I was researching.

[00:47:35] But your question was have, have you had children? So people who've got children, um,

[00:47:40] I'd love to understand their perspective. If you're dealing with men and you're also dealing with

[00:47:45] women, okay. What role, how does it shape the, the

[00:47:50] outcome if somebody who's in front of you has a child.

[00:47:54] Gerry Scullion: Like, what

[00:47:55] does it look like, um, if they're sent to prison? Like what services are there?

[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Gillian Hussey: I didn't have that. You

[00:48:02] Gerry Scullion: didn't have the information.

[00:48:03] Gillian Hussey: So I had no information. And it's

[00:48:05] really only since I've got friendly with Ruthanne on LinkedIn.

[00:48:10] LinkedIn,

[00:48:10] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:48:12] Gillian Hussey: I have discovered the, the fears, the

[00:48:15] horrors.

[00:48:15] Gerry Scullion: Yes.

[00:48:16] Gillian Hussey: You see, I, because I didn't

[00:48:20] put too many people in prison.

[00:48:21] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:48:23] Gillian Hussey: And certainly women. I didn't put a lot of them in

[00:48:25] prison, but I I, I might have put them in for a week or two. That mainly No, no. But

[00:48:30] if you don't put people in prison, it doesn't occur to you. Mm.

[00:48:35] But I never, never understood the things that she has come out with

[00:48:40]

[00:48:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:48:40] Gillian Hussey: On LinkedIn. Yeah. And it, it, it really terrified me.

[00:48:44] Gillian Hussey: Sure.

[00:48:45] How would I know if she's going into prison at 17 or 18?

[00:48:50] Yeah.

[00:48:50] Gerry Scullion: You don't have the full picture. That's what

[00:48:52] Gillian Hussey: well know. But, but if I ask her, is she

[00:48:55] pregnant? None of my business really, for starters. But she might

[00:49:00] know or she mightn't want to share it with me.

[00:49:03] Ruthann Barry: You know? I don't think so.

[00:49:05]

[00:49:05] Gillian Hussey: Can you tell us your

[00:49:06] Gerry Scullion: experience of, um,

[00:49:08] Ruthann Barry: so like,

[00:49:10] something that we're massively trying to change at the moment?

[00:49:13] Ruthann Barry: Yeah. Is

[00:49:15] when, I suppose criminal justice system, it, it

[00:49:20] was based on a male, like men, women

[00:49:25] didn't really go to prison. So everything was designed gender specific for male, it was designed for

[00:49:30] men, so it wasn't designed for women. So all the

[00:49:35] programs, everything is male based. Yeah. So

[00:49:40] like when I went in.

[00:49:43] Ruthann Barry: Like my first night

[00:49:45] in there, I solved my heart out because Who was the child at this time? I had three children.

[00:49:50]

[00:49:50] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:49:50] Ruthann Barry: Okay. At what ages were, were those children? So, um,

[00:49:55] I'm trying to think now. Um, well, one is 26 now. One's 20, one's

[00:50:00] 19. And then I have a 9-year-old.

[00:50:01] Jenny Harris: I only thought I had a little girl.

[00:50:03] Ruthann Barry: No, everybody just think that,

[00:50:05] but I had the three of them, so they ended up going into care with my mom.

[00:50:09] Ruthann Barry: Okay.

[00:50:10] Um, but this is where the system

[00:50:15] kind of fails. They don't take into account that the person loses

[00:50:20] their home, the person loses, their kid told to, gets involved. They lose their

[00:50:25] education, they lose the support systems that they have and, and them support systems don't come

[00:50:30] in. They lose. Like, so I go into prison today.

[00:50:34] Ruthann Barry: My

[00:50:35] clinic isn't contacted till. The following day, like if you are in court at a certain time, your

[00:50:40] clinic, it often isn't open that morning.

[00:50:42] Gerry Scullion: Mm.

[00:50:42] Ruthann Barry: So you are getting drugs to go to court

[00:50:45] with you. Like, sorry to say that. So when you were

[00:50:48] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: in custody, you with a guard, with you, you'd have drugs on you.

[00:50:50]

[00:50:50] Ruthann Barry: Oh, I was well packed.

[00:50:52] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Is that the term? Wow.

[00:50:55]

[00:50:55] Gerry Scullion: So what happened? Yeah. Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more again, like, it's like you don't wanna discuss it any

[00:51:00] further? Completely, no. So like what was it like when you went to prison? Like what happened to your children? Like who, who

[00:51:05] supported you to that? My

[00:51:06] Ruthann Barry: mom. I, I was lucky, but a lot of women don't have that.

[00:51:09] Ruthann Barry: A lot of women that

[00:51:10] kids are gone into care, the Irish mammy. So yes, I was pretty lucky that my mom and her

[00:51:15] husband, um, became guardians and, and full-time foster

[00:51:20] carers for my Chi three children prison. I was there for nearly four

[00:51:25] years. So, um,

[00:51:27] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: we, we used to go out, I used to meet her in prison.

[00:51:30] No, he used

[00:51:30] Ruthann Barry: to go into Catherine Heaven.

[00:51:31] Ruthann Barry: Sorry he didn't come into

[00:51:33] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: me.

[00:51:35] She used to fancy me. But what was fascinating me, Catherine, both of you, but

[00:51:40] Jerry, do you know what was fascinating? I saw women who should never be in the prison

[00:51:45] system being involved. Ed, just not to take the story away from you, but Ed was eight months

[00:51:50] pregnant. She was living in chaos in marginalization.

[00:51:53] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: She had no TV

[00:51:55] license. They arrested her and took her in, I mean, eight months pregnant.

[00:51:59] Yeah, they

[00:52:00] took me in. I nearly had a heart attack and I was living in Dolphins barn at the time.

[00:52:05] Right? So you had flats there, flats, hair, everybody you see,

[00:52:10] knows everyone's business. And they pulled up in the car and I went,

[00:52:15] and you ground the corner and I'll get in around the corner because I was so embarrassed.

[00:52:20]

[00:52:20] And he said, no, you have to get in. Eight months pregnant. Yeah. I went in

[00:52:25] and I got, did you baby

[00:52:26] Gerry Scullion: be in prison?

[00:52:27] No, I was only there for three hours, thank

[00:52:30] God. Because it was, because it was a fire. Do you know

[00:52:33] Ruthann Barry: what I mean? You had the baby in prison?

[00:52:35] I, I had, I carried my child. I got out 13 days before.

[00:52:40]

[00:52:40] Gerry Scullion: And you had the baby in prison and then No, I had

[00:52:41] Ruthann Barry: her, they released me two days before.

[00:52:45]

[00:52:45] Jenny Harris: See, your whole pregnancy was in prison. Yeah.

[00:52:46] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Yeah.

[00:52:48] Ruthann Barry: See,

[00:52:49] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: I remember

[00:52:50] meeting in the garden in the front of

[00:52:52] Gillian Hussey: mad. I didn't You were sent in by the circuit court.

[00:52:55]

[00:52:55] Ruthann Barry: Yeah, but I didn't go into prison pregnant. I

[00:53:00] got out on a weekend.

[00:53:01] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:53:02] Ruthann Barry: And what happened

[00:53:03] Gerry Scullion: anyway,

[00:53:05]

[00:53:05] Ruthann Barry: met Arby and came back pregnant. Um, and

[00:53:10] came back pregnant, but I had to hide it for three months and then I bled and I had to let them

[00:53:15] know.

[00:53:15] Ruthann Barry: And I got like my, I was supposed to get community

[00:53:20] return. This was all taken from me. Yeah, I used to get out to hospital appointments,

[00:53:25] um, on my own. That was all taken from me. I wasn't allowed the father of the child

[00:53:30] be come to hospital appointments or be present for any of that. So

[00:53:35] you experienced this solo, your own?

[00:53:36] Ruthann Barry: Yeah. Um, and

[00:53:40] it's, you know, my family found

[00:53:45] out through a newspaper article that I was pregnant, so they stopped talking to me for months.

[00:53:50] So I was isolated. I hadn't got that support.

[00:53:52] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:53:53] Ruthann Barry: So I was very, very

[00:53:55] broken. But luckily I had women in there who support

[00:54:00] me, and I had got some of the officers who became like family that

[00:54:05] I still connect with today.

[00:54:06] Ruthann Barry: Like, um,

[00:54:08] Gerry Scullion: that topic is so big.

[00:54:10] Yeah. It's, it's, it's worth having a podcast almost dedicated just on that, on its own. Yeah.

[00:54:15] And I'm conscious of time and I'm also conscious of the environment that we're in at the moment where lunches is gonna start

[00:54:20] happening. Um, I just wanna wrap up with, with one last question for everyone at the

[00:54:25] table.

[00:54:25] Gerry Scullion: Um, and that's right. Really around what message of hope would you

[00:54:30] share with a woman who's listening today and feels like change is possible? What would you say to other people

[00:54:35] who may be listening or, or are suffering at the moment with various forms of

[00:54:40] trauma? What would you say to them should be their first step?

[00:54:45]

[00:54:45] Well, for me, 'cause I do, I do your own perspective, um,

[00:54:50] in, in addiction.

[00:54:51] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:54:53] I would say there's a way out

[00:54:55] there is a way out. Although sometimes we get into, we feel

[00:55:00] like there's no way out.

[00:55:01] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:02] And that's why people commit suicides. They go into

[00:55:05] deep depressions. It affects their mental health.

[00:55:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:55:08] Like there is a way out. Yeah.

[00:55:10] And I. I love to see girls

[00:55:15] changing their life around. Yeah. And even when they come into the pre-entry, you know, just giving

[00:55:20] them the hope.

[00:55:21] Gerry Scullion: Where, where would you direct people to if they were in that scenario?

[00:55:25] Treatment. Wanna give a shout out to any, what would you recommend?

[00:55:29] Gerry Scullion: Well

[00:55:29]

[00:55:30] take, take in.

[00:55:32] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: But you work with them all, don't you see? I see. She works with

[00:55:35] people at the most marginalized, vulnerable, so what you do is, is amazing. And I

[00:55:40] will say that, yeah. And I think with your lived experience, you're able to see the person where they're at. Yeah. She sees the

[00:55:45] woman eight months pregnant, being arrested for a TV license that's on drugs, you know?

[00:55:48] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: So.

[00:55:48] Yeah. And

[00:55:50] I've been in tickling myself. Yeah. So I know the program.

[00:55:53] Gerry Scullion: I know.

[00:55:54] And

[00:55:55] like when I went in, I had no idea I had stuff to work on. I thought I was just

[00:56:00] going to go and get away from the drugs. I know. Yeah. But then I realized everything that, you know, that I

[00:56:05] needed to work on, but, and do you know what?

[00:56:08] Even take the addiction

[00:56:10] away, everybody's. Has rejection issues. Yeah. Some sort of trauma.

[00:56:15] Low self worth. Yeah. Loneliness. That's depression. We just spoke about this. Everybody does. Yeah.

[00:56:20]

[00:56:20] Bronagh McBrien: Anyone else? Anything else to add? Yeah, I remember, I remember, um, when

[00:56:25] I first actually genuinely reached out for help,

[00:56:30] help was offered to me, but I couldn't see it.

[00:56:32] Bronagh McBrien: I, I was in too much chaos. I

[00:56:35] wanted it, but there was too many barriers in the way with my own kind of cognitive dissonance. It was

[00:56:40] just, and I remember going into, I actually went into a faith-based, um,

[00:56:45] program initially who signposted me then to kill mine. And I

[00:56:50] remember the conversations that happened where we're not judging you, there's

[00:56:55] no judgment.

[00:56:55] Bronagh McBrien: And that, that was key because your, your, your self

[00:57:00] worth is, is just on the floor, literally. And anyone here that's. Lived

[00:57:05] experience would agree. So the key here is there's no judgment

[00:57:10] if you reach out. There is no judgment. And we live in an area of social

[00:57:15] media and technology. If you don't know where to go, Google.

[00:57:19] Bronagh McBrien: Like it's that

[00:57:20] simple Google support services in your area. Obviously pot telin enforce 'cause

[00:57:25] they're the main point to call. You've got Telin, you've got K mine, you've got HSC, you've got

[00:57:30] local addiction teams, you've got churches, they're support groups. But if, if you

[00:57:35] don't and Google get a phone number, you can get any, I'm sure most of our

[00:57:40] phone numbers you can get mine.

[00:57:41] Bronagh McBrien: No, you can't get it online, but you can get, you can get me through T Glen. I'm sure you could get through

[00:57:45] to route through t It is the online,

[00:57:48] Gerry Scullion: you know,

[00:57:48] Bronagh McBrien: so

[00:57:50] the information is there. If, and if you can't meet a person to give you that

[00:57:55] information, Google is a good starting point, you know. And can I just, can I just,

[00:57:58] sorry, can I just say

[00:58:00] if there is any barriers, um, you know the reasons why people say no,

[00:58:05] I can't go into treatment because like whether it's own rent, some people even own rent.

[00:58:09] I know. Yeah.

[00:58:10] Um, if they're gonna be nearly evicted, that'll stop them from going to treatment.

[00:58:15] Um, that's where you come in? Yeah, they call

[00:58:18] Ruthann Barry: me then. Yeah.

[00:58:20] So for me, like, don't fear having to

[00:58:25] go through the pain. Don't fear having to reach out to someone.

[00:58:30] And also like your past does not define you, so don't live in that past.

[00:58:34] Ruthann Barry: Yeah.

[00:58:35] A lot of the times people are afraid to get to know themselves and afraid to,

[00:58:40] like they use the drug as a safety blanket, as that crutch. Let that crutch

[00:58:45] fall, release the blanket from your shoulders. Love it. And, you know, reach

[00:58:50] out to, whether it's Tling, whether it's a HSE service or anybody,

[00:58:55] like, there's a lot of different programs out there.

[00:58:58] Ruthann Barry: Don't be afraid to reach out to someone for

[00:59:00] support. Yeah. You know, that's taking that first step is so important and sometimes it's

[00:59:05] often the hardest. Yeah. You know, but it'll be. The best journey that you will ever

[00:59:10] go on.

[00:59:11] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Yeah, definitely. Jerry, can I just say, um, if you look around the table, what, what

[00:59:15] you've done today, I think you've.

[00:59:17] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: You have the tip of the iceberg here. There's

[00:59:20] something special around this table. I absolutely sense it. And for too long you've seen GAA

[00:59:25] players who have come out and talked about their recovery. Mostly men. Now you've got four

[00:59:30] women around a table who are dynamic, one who is key in family support,

[00:59:35] one who is Ed, who, who's key.

[00:59:36] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Jenny Family support. Ed works with people that are

[00:59:40] marginalized, pre-entry, people that are heavily in addiction. Brona works

[00:59:45] with people that are homeless on the streets. Um, um, Ruanne works with people that are in the

[00:59:50] prison system. And I put it all down to the inspiration that Jillian Hussey led nearly

[00:59:55] 20 years ago.

[00:59:56] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: And I think if anything, it's a legacy and uh, you girls are

[01:00:00] continuing what Hussy started all those years ago. And I think it's the

[01:00:05] start of something very, very special. So,

[01:00:07] Jenny Harris: can I just add something in there? 'cause I didn't get to

[01:00:10] jump in there. For me, it would've been my pride. My pride wouldn't allow me to,

[01:00:15] especially being from Bali Ferma.

[01:00:16] Jenny Harris: Like a lot of people would've known me as a joker and I was, I was a merry

[01:00:20] drinker. But was at the end of the night where you're at home, you're on your own, you're with the bottle, and you wanna just end your life, you know?

[01:00:25] But outside, nobody knew that it was all the masks. I was like hiding it. So it was

[01:00:30] my pride.

[01:00:30] Jenny Harris: But I remember my dad was a dry drunk. He was sober for

[01:00:35] 28 years before he passed away. And I just never, I always said, I do not want it turn into my dad did not

[01:00:40] want it. And I could see myself slowly turning into that, man, do you know? And I love me, I love my

[01:00:45] dad. It's my dad at the end of the day. Yeah.

[01:00:46] Jenny Harris: But he would've put a lot of fear in my life growing up as a child.

[01:00:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. But

[01:00:50]

[01:00:50] Jenny Harris: when I had a daughter, then I was like, I don't want to put that fear into her. Yeah. And that's

[01:00:55] always they my fears, you know? And I've learned through counseling. I can't put my fears on her. Yeah. You know? So.

[01:01:00] For me, it was my pride and my ego.

[01:01:02] Jenny Harris: And that's coming from a woman. Do you know like, and that's

[01:01:05] why I'm now going to celebrate recovery. I'm going to a step program and it took me two and a

[01:01:10] half years. I've done a lot through church. But you have to come to a place in your recovery where you are ready

[01:01:15] to move on to the next season. Can I,

[01:01:17] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: can I just mention just one thing?

[01:01:19] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: We

[01:01:20] used a tagline many years ago and I was Tling Life Beyond Addiction. And what I

[01:01:25] found is you look around here, you've got the most beautiful women who actually are fun.

[01:01:30] They live lives that are exciting. Recovery is can be fun. And there

[01:01:35] is life beyond addiction. And each one of you, like we have the best of last.

[01:01:38] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: We did a, ed

[01:01:40] and myself did a TV show recently on RTE. We just couldn't stop laughing. We went into nuts, you

[01:01:45] know, so, and I know each one of you have a dynamic personality and I think recovery

[01:01:50] should be about fun, should be about life. And um, so well done. And thanks a

[01:01:55] million for all of you for doing what you do.

[01:01:56] Senator Aubrey McCarthy: Can I just

[01:01:56] Ruthann Barry: add at the end of that, um.

[01:02:00] That with women there's a lot more stigma and judgment attached. Yeah. That's why you

[01:02:05] don't see a, as many women putting themselves out there. But today I am honored

[01:02:10] and full of gratitude to sit amongst these women and Fantastic. And this

[01:02:15] feminine man here. Is

[01:02:17] Gerry Scullion: it okay for people to reach out to you?

[01:02:19] Gerry Scullion: Do you like,

[01:02:20] are you all on LinkedIn or Yeah, we're on people to connect with you and like follow up with the story. The numbers are on.

[01:02:25] Do

[01:02:25] Jenny Harris: you know why? I was just on the main street in Valley Fair there and um, I was in the shop so I was dropping my daughter up to our

[01:02:30] dancing and two girls that came to me from White Pass, which I wouldn't have had a great relationship with,

[01:02:35] which would be probably triggers of my past.

[01:02:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:02:37] Jenny Harris: And they came and they're coming to the meeting tonight

[01:02:40] because I put up, I'm not on social media, I'm only on WhatsApp. Yeah. And they came to me and they said, Jenny, we want to go

[01:02:45] because you went the away, you've changed. And sometimes I don't see that I've changed,

[01:02:50] but people see that you've changed and see when you go home and you've changed and nothing else has changed at home.

[01:02:54] Jenny Harris: That's the.

[01:02:55] Okay. But for people to see that you've changed and it's great, I'm gonna like,

[01:03:00] it will probably form a new relationship. Fantastic. And I wouldn't have spoke to this for about 20 years. So this is what

[01:03:05] it's all about. It's about change and Yeah.

[01:03:07] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. Well look, thank you for everyone for

[01:03:10] coming here today.

[01:03:11] Gerry Scullion: I wrap up every episode on this inside city. We thank you. I'm still waiting on me coffee. I

[01:03:15] thank people for their vulnerability. 'cause I know like it's, it is a vulnerable statement. You've been asked questions on the

[01:03:20] spot and you've got cameras and you've got mics and all of this kind of stuff sitting around.

[01:03:23] Gerry Scullion: So thank you so much for allowing to, thank

[01:03:25] you so much to peek into your lives. Thank

[01:03:26] Jenny Harris: you.

[01:03:27] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank

[01:03:30]

[01:03:35] you.

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