Designing Safely: Safeguarding + Trauma-Informed Practice with Ali Fawkes (Humanly)

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Gerry Scullion and I'm a

[00:00:05] human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland. And today in the

[00:00:10] show, I'm delighted to welcome Ali Fawkes from Humanly in London, and we're gonna

[00:00:15] be talking about lots and lots of wonderful things.

[00:00:17] Gerry Scullion: Now, I caught up at Ali at the SD in Gov

[00:00:20] conference where Ali was also speaking, and we really wanted to focus on a few different things.

[00:00:25] Now this conversation with Ali is a powerful one, and we talk about her journey from fine art

[00:00:30] and special education into service design and how that diverse background became

[00:00:35] her superpower in the design world a lot.

[00:00:37] Gerry Scullion: We also dive into honest reflections and

[00:00:40] feeling like an imposter when stepping into design for the first time and how she learned to embrace the

[00:00:45] label designer on her. Own terms. And finally, we explore something deeply

[00:00:50] important, but often overlooked How to design safely. This is

[00:00:55] something that Rachel Deka spoke about in our keynote at sd and gov, but we echo that

[00:01:00] conversation in this conversation with Ali today as well.

[00:01:03] Gerry Scullion: Ali shares how

[00:01:05] humanly has built a strong safeguarding and trauma-informed practices into the work. Ensuring the

[00:01:10] safety of both the research participants and the practitioners when tackling sensitive

[00:01:15] social issues. It's a thoughtful, inspiring, and grounded discussion that reminds us that

[00:01:20] great design isn't just about creativity, it's about care, it's about empathy,

[00:01:25] and ultimately it's about responsibility.

[00:01:27] Gerry Scullion: If you like today's episode, please do like and subscribe and

[00:01:30] do all the usual things that I ask you to do on this podcast. Ali is fantastic. I know you're

[00:01:35] gonna love Ali. Please do connect with her on LinkedIn. If you like this episode, she's

[00:01:40] more than happy to share any of her insights. I know it's a good one.

[00:01:42] Gerry Scullion: Let's jump straight in.

[00:01:45]

[00:01:50]

[00:01:53] Gerry Scullion: All right, Ali, how's it

[00:01:55] going? Yeah, good. I've got to know you this week. Yep. Uh, we're here at sd and gov.

[00:02:00] It's been one of the best design conferences I've been at. In a very long time, mainly

[00:02:05] because it's focused on social impact. Yep. Which is a great segue for

[00:02:10] you. Yes. So maybe tell us a little bit about your role, uh, where you're at and what you do.

[00:02:14] Ali Fawkes: Yep.

[00:02:15] So, um, I'm Ali, I'm head of social innovation at Humanly.

[00:02:20] Which is a small, uh, human centered design studio for social impact

[00:02:24] Gerry Scullion: with Jenny

[00:02:25] Parker. With

[00:02:25] Ali Fawkes: Jenny Parker. It's Jenny Parker's studio. Yeah. Um, uh, but I've

[00:02:30] been there since it started. Yeah. Back in 2017. Um, so yeah.

[00:02:35]

[00:02:35] Gerry Scullion: Brilliant. I remember when people used to say it's just a small agency, and I would almost feel like it was

[00:02:40] devaluing it, but I actually believe I'm a single person with a load of associates.

[00:02:43] Gerry Scullion: Yep. And I actually believe

[00:02:45] that's a superpower. Yes. Um, and speaking of superpowers.

[00:02:50] I wanna talk to you about your background. Yes, believe it or not, this is the third time we've tried to

[00:02:55] record this episode, um, which gives us a little bit of an edge because I've

[00:03:00] done 10 minutes of this episode before and I know, um, your background is what I would

[00:03:05] describe as highly, uh, interesting and, um,

[00:03:10] really, really brilliant to see people crossing over into the world of service design.

[00:03:14] Gerry Scullion: But

[00:03:15] maybe we'll. That you tell your own story. Um, where, where and

[00:03:20] what, what did you study?

[00:03:20] Ali Fawkes: So, uh, initially I studied fine art painting.

[00:03:25] Um, well, I mean, actually I've studied everything, uh, costume,

[00:03:30] construction, fashion, fine art, painting. I was a bit of a university hopper. Uh, I

[00:03:35] could never find something that I kind of, sorry,

[00:03:37] Gerry Scullion: will help

[00:03:38] Ali Fawkes: that I stuck at.

[00:03:40]

[00:03:40] Ali Fawkes: Um, but yeah, eventually, uh. Graduated with

[00:03:45] fine art painting.

[00:03:46] Gerry Scullion: Nice. Where did you do that? Ster?

[00:03:47] Ali Fawkes: No, that was uh, university of

[00:03:50] Kent in the end. Oh,

[00:03:50] Gerry Scullion: right. Very nice.

[00:03:51] Ali Fawkes: After Kingston and Central School, the speech and drama.

[00:03:55] Uh, okay. I went over Kent, but then I went to the University of Cambridge to um, study,

[00:04:00] uh, to be a secondary school art teacher.

[00:04:02] Ali Fawkes: Right. Um, but I never actually

[00:04:05] taught in secondary schools. Okay. After I qualified, I went straight into working in special schools

[00:04:10] Yeah. And teaching art to children aged, uh, two to 19

[00:04:15] with, um, you know, special educational needs, disabilities. And then I studied

[00:04:20] for a master's in special and inclusive education.

[00:04:23] Gerry Scullion: Special.

[00:04:23] Ali Fawkes: Right. Uh, and yeah.

[00:04:25] Worked in special and inclusive education for a while, specialized in

[00:04:30] working with. Kids with very complex needs.

[00:04:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:04:33] Ali Fawkes: Communication challenges.

[00:04:35] Um, and how sort of art can be used as a,

[00:04:40] a way for people who don't necessarily have verbal communication or any formal communication

[00:04:45] Yeah.

[00:04:45] Ali Fawkes: To communicate and express themselves.

[00:04:47] Gerry Scullion: Fantastic.

[00:04:48] Ali Fawkes: Um, then I worked, uh, with

[00:04:50] adults, um, ended up as Asperger syndrome project officer at the University of Cambridge.

[00:04:55] And then got brought into a project that Jenny Parker was the

[00:05:00] designer on. It was a, um, project to design a digital product for people with learning disabilities.

[00:05:05]

[00:05:05] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. And she had been brought in as the designer, but said she wanted somebody with sort of, um,

[00:05:10] expertise in working with that group. People lived experience. So that, um.

[00:05:15] Uh, because it wasn't an area she'd worked in before and I was brought in to provide that. Oh,

[00:05:20] brilliant. We worked together for like a year, 18 months on that project, and

[00:05:24] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:05:25] so there's, there's two angles that I'm really interested in.

[00:05:27] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. One, one is your background and what, you

[00:05:30] know, why I believe that's a superpower. Yeah. To bring those new dimensions to

[00:05:35] the design, craft, and profession. And the second thing. Is your own journey?

[00:05:40] Yeah. About, you know, moving from career to career. 'cause I, I speak to a lot of people and they're like,

[00:05:45] I couldn't possibly move.

[00:05:46] Gerry Scullion: I studied psychology and I'm like, that's a perfect way to enter

[00:05:50] into human-centered design and service design. Yeah. But going back to the first question, um.

[00:05:55] How have you found the entering into the world

[00:06:00] of design? Like under, you know, working alongside Jenny

[00:06:05] and what was that kinda transition like?

[00:06:07] Ali Fawkes: So initially Jenny, everything

[00:06:10] would describe me as resistant.

[00:06:11] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. I, uh, I

[00:06:15] resistant. How so? Well, I, it wasn't totally new to me. Yeah. So human centered design

[00:06:20] totally new to me. Yeah. I thought I knew. What I was do, like I thought I knew how to do research.

[00:06:24] Gerry Scullion:

[00:06:25] Because you've been doing it for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've

[00:06:26] Ali Fawkes: been doing it for a while. I thought I knew how to do research.

[00:06:29] Ali Fawkes:

[00:06:30] Um, I thought I knew how to work with people with learning disabilities. I thought I

[00:06:35] knew this stuff. I'd been employed to do this stuff. And then, um,

[00:06:40] through this project and through applying human-centered design and design research.

[00:06:45] With this group, um, I learned that I've been wrong about a

[00:06:50] lot of stuff.

[00:06:50] Ali Fawkes: Right. And a lot of way that ways that things are done sort of historically or

[00:06:55] traditionally that are seen as the way things are done Yeah. Actually aren't the best way that, that they could

[00:07:00] be. Okay. And it's just sort of an area where. Human centered design's never really

[00:07:05] kind of ventured because it is challenging.

[00:07:06] Ali Fawkes: But yeah, by me and you know, Jenny brings the

[00:07:10] kind of design expertise and had all of those skills. Mm-hmm. And by being able to collaborate

[00:07:15] and put tho that knowledge together with kind of what

[00:07:20] I had and those skills, we were able to develop a way that

[00:07:25] meaningfully involved people who had never really been involved in any of these sort of Yeah.

[00:07:29] Ali Fawkes:

[00:07:30] Processes. Um, before, okay. And actually genuinely get to understand what

[00:07:35] people needed wanted.

[00:07:36] Gerry Scullion: Nice

[00:07:37] Ali Fawkes: challenge some of these really long held

[00:07:40] beliefs around. You know what people wanted, how people needed things to be

[00:07:45] done. Yeah. Um, which was amazing. And it was a huge eye opener for me. And I

[00:07:50] also think it helps me up till now because it's not like I've always

[00:07:55] been in human centered design and came into it going well, yes, I know.

[00:07:59] Ali Fawkes: This is

[00:08:00] fantastic. I came into it almost resistant. Yeah. And learned how amazing it was

[00:08:05] by having my knowledge. Challenged.

[00:08:09] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:08:09] Ali Fawkes: Which

[00:08:10] means that when I meet people who are going through it for the first time and are kind of experiencing that

[00:08:15] same thing or a sort of, um, skeptical Yeah. About how can this

[00:08:20] possibly work, you know, to step into it.

[00:08:21] Ali Fawkes: Um, I can sort of go look. I understand how you feel 'cause I've

[00:08:25] been there. I thought it was a bag

[00:08:26] Gerry Scullion: of

[00:08:26] Ali Fawkes: shot.

[00:08:30] It's okay. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Just sit with it. Just see what

[00:08:35] happens. Trust the process. Yeah, I understand that. It's really, I know they all

[00:08:38] Gerry Scullion: look crazy with their

[00:08:40] glasses and stuff, but It's okay.

[00:08:42] Ali Fawkes: It's okay. Honestly, it works.

[00:08:45] Yeah. Honestly, we'll learn stuff that you've never learned through any other method, like

[00:08:50] honestly, you will get a better outcome. And I think being able to

[00:08:55] share that with people, it's very powerful. And say, you know, it's very powerful. Oh, I was brought in as an expert,

[00:09:00] but learned I was totally wrong.

[00:09:01] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. Through this process is helpful.

[00:09:05] Yeah. And can help reassure people.

[00:09:08] Gerry Scullion: You, you're basically saying,

[00:09:10] you know, the Kool-Aid, you don't, you don't really have to drink the Kool-Aid, but just respect that it's

[00:09:15] there and you know, over time just let it be there. Just let it be there. Yeah. Now I know.

[00:09:20] Coaching designers and from especially training a lot of designers who may

[00:09:25] say that they're not designers.

[00:09:27] Gerry Scullion: Yep. That transition period, um,

[00:09:30] to eventually adopting the label of a designer, they're like,

[00:09:35] well, I couldn't possibly say that 'cause I'm actually, I studied this and this and this. Yep. How was that for you?

[00:09:40]

[00:09:40] Ali Fawkes: Really hard and I refused for a long time to call myself. Yeah, you still don't designer. I still don't.

[00:09:44] Ali Fawkes: That's

[00:09:45] fine. I was, you know, a, a social innovation consultant and I had a social innovation love.

[00:09:50] Um, yeah. I, I will call myself a designer

[00:09:55] if I need to, but I, it is not, you know, I think it took me a long time. I'm no longer

[00:10:00] uncomfortable with it.

[00:10:00] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And how did you, how did you silence those? Felt imposter.

[00:10:05]

[00:10:05] Gerry Scullion: The imposter thing, like I think

[00:10:06] Ali Fawkes: just over time and also, um, one of the things

[00:10:10] I learned as I kind of got to, you know, learn more about the

[00:10:15] process.

[00:10:15] Gerry Scullion: Yes.

[00:10:16] Ali Fawkes: Through that, you know, initial project and all those that have followed,

[00:10:20] um, I always referred to that initial project has been like my apprenticeship.

[00:10:23] Ali Fawkes: 'cause actually it was, we were very fortunate. Probably

[00:10:25] similar. Yeah. It was an incredibly lucky project in that we were following the, we were

[00:10:30] able to go through the entire. Process properly. Yeah. Which is not that, you

[00:10:35] know, common. Yeah. Um, was, it was interesting. Was really

[00:10:40] interesting. Um, and I've lost my train of thought.

[00:10:43] Ali Fawkes: No, it's okay. Like the,

[00:10:44] Gerry Scullion: the transition

[00:10:45] into, into the world and been calling yourself a designer, like, you know, like it's,

[00:10:50] it's one of those stepping stones that some people step into straight away and they're like, yeah, I'm good. I'm happy to adopt it. And then.

[00:10:55]

[00:10:55] Ali Fawkes: Uh, so what I learned through that was that actually I'd been applying some of these

[00:11:00] approaches in previous work.

[00:11:01] Ali Fawkes: Just not knowing it. Yeah. Not knowing what that was called. Sure. Not knowing

[00:11:05] that I was iterating, prototyping, adapting.

[00:11:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:08] Ali Fawkes: But I, um, when as

[00:11:10] I learned about the human center design process, I was able to go, oh. But that's what I

[00:11:15] did. Yeah. That's what I applied in that role. Yeah. That's how we developed this group

[00:11:20] or that group, or you know, that's how this concept developed was because, you know, I

[00:11:25] identified that there was a need.

[00:11:26] Ali Fawkes: We thought, well, let's give it a go. Try it out, or This didn't work. We

[00:11:30] tried three different options. Yeah. You know, so. I love that. I think I became more

[00:11:35] comfortable as I sort of learned more about it and then actually I have been doing it a while.

[00:11:40] Just didn't know.

[00:11:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I know. Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot to be said for not applying a

[00:11:45] label to what you do and just saying actually the outcome.

[00:11:47] Gerry Scullion: You're a social impact. Yeah. Uh, consultant

[00:11:50] and that really works towards it. Now in the SD and GO conference yourself and Janie

[00:11:55] gave a workshop Yeah. Around, uh, both

[00:12:00] practitioner and research participant safety. Yeah.

[00:12:05] I'm deeply interested in that, having suffered still 10

[00:12:10] years later, dealing with vicarious trauma from research projects.

[00:12:14] Gerry Scullion: Yep.

[00:12:15] Um. Can you, are you okay to explore that topic a little bit in the background? Uh, if

[00:12:20] there's a personal arc to it. So

[00:12:22] Ali Fawkes: I think, yeah, there's very much a personal

[00:12:25] arc to it. I think for me, I was quite because of coming from a background

[00:12:30] where I had been a teacher and I'd also worked in advocacy

[00:12:35] as a background where the kind of safety and safeguarding is very,

[00:12:40] very.

[00:12:40] Ali Fawkes: Top of the agenda.

[00:12:42] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And

[00:12:43] Ali Fawkes: it's in everything you

[00:12:45] do. And when I came into human centered design, I was quite

[00:12:50] surprised by some of the things that yeah, we were able to do in some way. You know, it's like, can you gimme

[00:12:53] Gerry Scullion: an example?

[00:12:54] Ali Fawkes: So

[00:12:55] for me, home visits. Right. Were like, what? We can go and do

[00:13:00] research in people's homes?

[00:13:01] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. Like they're okay with that. And, you know,

[00:13:05] we've always, uh, humanly practiced doing that in pairs and

[00:13:10] doing it very safely. But, you know, I'm aware that's not always the case. And also even

[00:13:15] then, for me, it was really quite surprising because it's, you know,

[00:13:20] um, coming from my background. But it, I learned it was absolutely the best

[00:13:25] thing to do and it was great.

[00:13:26] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. But what I've sort of over time tried to

[00:13:30] do is develop, uh, ways of bringing in

[00:13:35] some of the, some of the. Sort of,

[00:13:40] uh, resources that help to keep people safe. Yeah. Both the participants and

[00:13:45] the practitioners without stifling what we do, so, right. Can you

[00:13:48] Gerry Scullion: gimme more examples on

[00:13:50] this?

[00:13:50] Ali Fawkes: So it's about making sure that there are policies and.

[00:13:54] Ali Fawkes:

[00:13:55] Like procedures in place so that if something happens, we know what to do. Mm. So for

[00:14:00] example, one of the examples we used in our training session was if we're working on a

[00:14:05] project well, where every time we work on a project, what we do is we identify, we go through what are the

[00:14:10] potential risks, essentially what could come up in this project.

[00:14:14] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. Could there

[00:14:15] be accidental or deliberate disclosure of

[00:14:20] um Sure. Abuse or could there be, um. A

[00:14:25] disclosure that somebody, um. Is feeling hopeless or suicidal

[00:14:30] potentially.

[00:14:30] Gerry Scullion: Mm.

[00:14:31] Ali Fawkes: And if that comes up, what are we gonna do?

[00:14:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What's the, uh,

[00:14:34] Ali Fawkes: because it's not

[00:14:35] so as a practitioner, there's nothing worse than being in a situation where something comes up

[00:14:40] and you don't know what to do.

[00:14:41] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:14:42] Ali Fawkes: If beforehand we've identified all those

[00:14:45] risks and we've planned out, what are we gonna do in those situations, you are

[00:14:50] not having to think in the moment and there's no stress on you because you're going, okay, I

[00:14:55] know what I do in this situation. Mm. So for example, where we did identify that there was a

[00:15:00] reasonable possibility that people might be disclosing that they were feeling

[00:15:05] hopeless or suicidal.

[00:15:06] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. We had, um, everyone had

[00:15:10] training. Around, around that and around suicide prevention.

[00:15:15] We wrote it into our, um, safeguarding policy and practice and into

[00:15:19] Gerry Scullion: consent as

[00:15:20] well. Was it?

[00:15:20] Ali Fawkes: And, um, it wasn't. Well, we always put in consent when,

[00:15:23] Gerry Scullion: like the documentation of

[00:15:25] if you're feeling like these things and you identify them, we are duty bound to.

[00:15:29] Ali Fawkes:

[00:15:30] We always say that. Okay. So we all, when it comes to consent, as far as I'm concerned, informed

[00:15:35] consent's only informed consent if people know the limits of the confidentiality. Yeah. And that is always

[00:15:40] gonna mean that if someone tells us something, that means that we str, we believe that they or

[00:15:45] someone else is at serious risk of harm.

[00:15:47] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:15:47] Ali Fawkes: We have to tell someone.

[00:15:48] Gerry Scullion: So in that scenario, say

[00:15:50] you're engaged by. A government or an NGO, whoever it is. Yeah. Like we need this piece of research

[00:15:55] though. We need some experimentation or prototyping. And the previous people that have been in

[00:16:00] haven't done informed consent and they haven't gone to the lengths of saying, well, if someone in

[00:16:05] research tells us that they're feeling suicidal, uh, they don't have any policy in place.

[00:16:09] Gerry Scullion:

[00:16:10] Um, and then you go back to the client and you say, we just need to put all those safeguarding measures in place, and then they put

[00:16:15] you into the too hard basket. Which is a very, very common scenario for people. I've

[00:16:20] been in that scenario. I said, listen, we need to look at consent. We need to look. And they're like, we just want a quick fix.

[00:16:24] Gerry Scullion: It

[00:16:25] sounds like you're too much of a purist. Have you navigated that?

[00:16:28] Ali Fawkes: To be honest, we find that

[00:16:30] it reassures clients. Yeah. If we are, the ones going

[00:16:33] Gerry Scullion: lovely. Yeah.

[00:16:34] Ali Fawkes: Actually,

[00:16:35] we need to explore the what could happen. Yeah. These are the risks

[00:16:40] we've identified. Can we check? What are your policies on this? Yeah, we'll align what

[00:16:45] we do with your policies.

[00:16:46] Ali Fawkes: We'll make sure we're all in agreement. We co-design the plan of what's gonna happen

[00:16:50] in different circumstances. So in that situation where we identified there was a real

[00:16:55] risk of, of sort of people potentially feeling hopeless or suicidal, we, um,

[00:17:00] we even drafted an email that we would send to people. Um.

[00:17:04] Ali Fawkes: That

[00:17:05] had signposting, that had links to support and that was agreed by the

[00:17:10] client. It was agreed by everybody on the team. So we knew exactly what our steps would be, should that

[00:17:15] happen. Yeah. And it just meant that it's not only safer for the participant because we know that

[00:17:20] they're gonna get support, but it's safer for us because we know how we're gonna, I love respond in a circumstance, all of us.

[00:17:24] Ali Fawkes: And we

[00:17:25] do that in every project. Yeah. I go, you know, we go through, we identify what are the risks often

[00:17:30] if we're working with children.

[00:17:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:17:32] Ali Fawkes: we make the plan of, you know, what is it we're gonna do? Well,

[00:17:35] what we do is we're gonna align with the school safeguarding policy. We always read the school safeguarding policy.

[00:17:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:17:40] Yeah. I love it.

[00:17:40] Ali Fawkes: You know, we all have safeguarding training.

[00:17:43] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:17:43] Ali Fawkes: Oddly, it's

[00:17:45] for, it's actually, it appears to be designed for like plumbers because it's

[00:17:50] um, N-S-P-C-C training for people who go into other people's

[00:17:55] homes.

[00:17:55] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:17:56] Ali Fawkes: Like plumbers.

[00:17:57] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Oh, okay. Right.

[00:17:58] Ali Fawkes: Because that's the

[00:18:00] most similar kind of scenario, scenario we could find.

[00:18:04] Ali Fawkes: Wow. Um,

[00:18:05] because actually we are not providing the people we're doing research with the

[00:18:10] service. We are not, yeah. Their social worker that they, they're, I know it's a very, and there's no.

[00:18:15] Guidance around what are you meant, do how to approach. How to approach it. Yeah. What are the, you know,

[00:18:20] there's just nothing.

[00:18:20] Ali Fawkes: We've had to kind of read everything. We can take what

[00:18:25] we know, what we feel, what we, and develop all this ourselves. Yeah. Um,

[00:18:30] so yeah, we kind of found that that was the best. Training there was.

[00:18:35] It's what you do if you go into someone's house, you ident how to identify that things might be

[00:18:40] wrong, what you should do in those circumstances.

[00:18:42] Ali Fawkes: Yeah. But as somebody who's not there as a service provider

[00:18:45] to that person, I understand.

[00:18:47] Gerry Scullion: So you're working on a lot of stuff at the

[00:18:50] moment. Um, if people wanna follow what you're doing. Yeah. I know Jenny Parker's been on the podcast before, a

[00:18:55] very popular podcast. If people wanna follow you in your own journey and reach out to you and

[00:19:00] ask about your own journey.

[00:19:01] Gerry Scullion: 'cause there, there are people out there in the social innovation sector that. We'll look at

[00:19:05] this. I'm gonna go look, that's exactly what I want to get into. Are you okay if people reach out to you and ask? Absolutely.

[00:19:10] What's the best way for people to do that?

[00:19:11] Ali Fawkes: So on LinkedIn, I mean, my name's Ali Forks. Yeah.

[00:19:14] Ali Fawkes:

[00:19:15] Um, and I'm just Ali a l, iCore Forks, F-A-W-K-S. And on the

[00:19:20] same one socials. That's my,

[00:19:21] Gerry Scullion: yeah. I'll put a link to whatever we can find into the show notes.

[00:19:25] And as I said, YouTube as well. If you're watching a description, it's in there as well. You can connect with Ali.

[00:19:30] Ali is remarkable. A breath of fresh air.

[00:19:31] Gerry Scullion: I love speaking to people who are, you know, not from a

[00:19:35] traditional design background and have moved into this world. You add so much to the, the

[00:19:40] disability design, so great. And if you see Ali or uh, Jenny at any conferences

[00:19:45] over the next couple of months, make sure you go up and say hello to them. Uh, they're wonderful people as well.

[00:19:48] Gerry Scullion: I'm always very happy

[00:19:49] Ali Fawkes: to

[00:19:49] Gerry Scullion: talk.

[00:19:50] Alright, thanks for your time. Thank

[00:19:55] you.

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