Public Design, Power & the Future of Services — with Lucy Kimbell

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Gerry

[00:00:05] Scullion and I'm a human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin Ireland.

[00:00:10] Today on the show, I'm delighted to welcome somebody I wanted to have in the show for a very long time, and that's

[00:00:15] Lucy Kimbell

[00:00:15] Gerry Scullion: We actually walk the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, and this episode, if you're

[00:00:20] listening on Spotify or Apple, jump over to YouTube if you wanna see the, the beautiful.

[00:00:25] As surrounds of this journey of us walking through Edinburgh city together in a little bit of the

[00:00:30] rain, but it'll bring a little bit of an extra dimension to the conversation.

[00:00:33] Gerry Scullion: So Lucy is an

[00:00:35] engineer turned artist, turned academic, a longtime observer of how design actually

[00:00:40] lands in government. Now, you might have seen her on the panel around UX government's recent.

[00:00:45] Public design evidence review. So in this conversation we get practical and we

[00:00:50] get real about three things that I want you to listen out for.

[00:00:52] Gerry Scullion: Number one is public design. What it

[00:00:55] actually is, the Lucy helps untangle the mess of terms of policy

[00:01:00] design, service design, digital and content, and why public design centers

[00:01:05] legitimacy and accountability to citizens, not just delivery metrics. Number two, the

[00:01:10] conditions for good service design. In tough times, we talk inclusion and accessibility.

[00:01:14] Gerry Scullion:

[00:01:15] But also the uncomfortable bit. Most conferences skip politics and how

[00:01:20] power ideology in today's AI silver bullets shape what's possible and what

[00:01:25] scaffolding leaders need. So design doesn't get crushed by austerity

[00:01:30] or tech. Solutionism or solutionism should be careers with

[00:01:35] impact. That's the third piece.

[00:01:36] Gerry Scullion: Okay. From appropriate technology and feminist theater to business schools and labs.

[00:01:40] Lucy has done an awful lot in her career and Lucy distills these three habits, the

[00:01:45] Curiosity, experimentalism, and Critical Reflection. They're the three pieces that Lucy

[00:01:50] calls out in this episode and really how this helps designers work upstream with

[00:01:55] policy and senior leadership.

[00:01:56] Gerry Scullion: It's a thoughtful, grounded, and packed with takeaways that you can use

[00:02:00] on any given day. If you do enjoy this episode, please do follow the show. Tap a

[00:02:05] Star a like whatever it is in your, on your podcast app. A evil review, if you can. Five words is

[00:02:10] perfect. On YouTube, hit us like and subscribe. Ring the bell and don't miss what's next.

[00:02:14] Gerry Scullion: If you're

[00:02:15] around the, This is HCD website, please do sign up to our newsletter. It helps you stay informed about all

[00:02:20] things design leadership. Before we do that, let's jump straight into this episode where we walk around

[00:02:25] Edinburgh Castle. I know it's gonna be a beautiful one for you. It's been a beautiful one for me.

[00:02:28] Gerry Scullion: Getting to know Lucy. That's jump

[00:02:30] straight.

[00:02:35]

[00:02:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:02:40] We're Edmar and you are, well, you were on the panel

[00:02:45] the other day, which I saw about public design.

[00:02:48] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, the public design

[00:02:50] evidence review. Okay. Published by the UK government in July.

[00:02:53] Gerry Scullion: And how, how did you get involved with

[00:02:55] that? Like what's the. The approach.

[00:02:57] Lucy Kimbell : Um, so, uh,

[00:03:00] maybe just wind back. Yeah. Um, for more than 10 years,

[00:03:05] uh, there's been an intensification of design capabilities in government, often

[00:03:10] tied to digital services and services.

[00:03:13] Lucy Kimbell : But then,

[00:03:15] uh, bringing design and its various, uh, guises

[00:03:20] into the policy making. Um, and a an early example of that was the

[00:03:25] Danish unit. Uh oh yeah. Mind lab. Um, in 2014, the UK

[00:03:30] government set up as a really quite small experiment, policy lab. Um, and I had the

[00:03:35] privilege of working in there. Uh, for a year, part-time through a, a research

[00:03:40] fellowship.

[00:03:40] Lucy Kimbell : Nice. So I've been sort of tracking and paying attention to this emergence and,

[00:03:45] uh, zoom forward, uh, 2023. Um, Andy Knight, who

[00:03:50] convenes the, uh, public design hold on. Policy design community, which

[00:03:55] is across government network, basically.

[00:03:57] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:03:57] Lucy Kimbell : Um, uh, of, of various

[00:04:00] people doing design activities in government related roles and, and local government.

[00:04:05]

[00:04:05] Lucy Kimbell : And public services in the uk um, initiated something called the Public Design

[00:04:10] Evidence Review, and that's what was published in July. Okay. Um, uh, with

[00:04:15] various teams involved. And so some of us who were involved in it spoke. At the conference on

[00:04:20] whatever the first day was to just share with the broader audience, because many of the people are

[00:04:25] at are at this conference here in Edinburgh.

[00:04:26] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. So can I just take a,

[00:04:30] an even further step back, uh, back in time, what did you study in university?

[00:04:35]

[00:04:35] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, so I studied engineering, design, and appropriate technology. Okay.

[00:04:40] Um, what, what,

[00:04:41] Gerry Scullion: what's appropriate technology?

[00:04:43] Lucy Kimbell : Well, it's the things that we now

[00:04:45] think are essential for, um, uh, an ecological future.

[00:04:49] Lucy Kimbell : Such

[00:04:50] as, uh, wind power, solar power, and so on. Okay. But back in the seventies and eighties,

[00:04:55] um, they, they, that was more the sort of obscure fringes of engineering, which I

[00:05:00] relished in, but I wasn't a very good engineer and I spent most of my time doing

[00:05:05] experimental feminist theater. And, uh, the rest of my life is trying to join those two things up.

[00:05:09] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. '

[00:05:09] Gerry Scullion: cause I

[00:05:10] know you, you've dabbled, let's say dabbled. You've, you've got an extensive art career as well. Yeah.

[00:05:15] Um, and I've, I've looking through your website and exploring all of that as well.

[00:05:20] So how would you identify, like if you're at a dinner party and someone says, Lucy, what do you do?

[00:05:24] Lucy Kimbell : I'd

[00:05:25] say I have, uh, tried to understand, make

[00:05:30] sense of the world, explore the world, and used various media and formats to,

[00:05:35] at different points to share understanding and

[00:05:40] experiences and connect with people.

[00:05:40] Lucy Kimbell : So that's really a vague answer. Yeah, I mean, right now I'm an academic. For the last 20 years

[00:05:45] I've been an academic rooted in design, but I was in a business school for

[00:05:50] five years, so I got exposed to. World class organization studies and that

[00:05:55] had a knock on effect. It made me take research very, very seriously.

[00:05:58] Lucy Kimbell : I mean, because I mean, you worked in loads

[00:05:59] Gerry Scullion: of

[00:06:00] different institutions. That's because

[00:06:01] Lucy Kimbell : I couldn't get a job, Jared, right? Gerald?

[00:06:03] Gerry Scullion: Jerry. Call me

[00:06:05] Jerry. Sorry.

[00:06:05] Lucy Kimbell : Sorry. It's just that Irish thing's thing. I wanna call you Jared,

[00:06:09] Gerry Scullion: gimme my full name.

[00:06:10] So you're primarily, uh, you're involved in policy design and obviously you, you

[00:06:15] wrote a paper a number of years ago, and I guess what I'm interested in, there's a lot of people here.

[00:06:19] Gerry Scullion: You

[00:06:20] listen to my podcast specifically, who are looking to inform greater impact. Yeah. Okay.

[00:06:25] They might have studied design, and when they're interfacing with other parts of government, they feel

[00:06:30] this kind of level of like, well, I don't know much about policy. Yeah. And they're kind of

[00:06:35] learning that that might be the right rate to explore to get greater impact.

[00:06:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:06:40] Yeah. How did you navigate that? You're an engineer, uh, but you've worked in academia

[00:06:45] for 20 years, I think you just said. How did you get to that point where you're

[00:06:50] suddenly collaborating on these massive reports and policy design?

[00:06:55] Uh, uh,

[00:06:55] Lucy Kimbell : being curious, being nosy, and

[00:06:57] Gerry Scullion: I think we grew up here, don't we?

[00:06:58] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah.

[00:06:59] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, yeah. And

[00:07:00] here we are in absolutely beautiful Edinburgh where it's only raining a little bit.

[00:07:04] Gerry Scullion: That's

[00:07:05] all right. You, you're almost Irish as we've determined.

[00:07:07] Lucy Kimbell : No, I have them. So the water, I have the

[00:07:10] documentation,

[00:07:10] Gerry Scullion: the water soaks into our skin. We don't feel right. It does, it

[00:07:12] Lucy Kimbell : does. Like it just disappears off me.

[00:07:13] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah.

[00:07:15] Uh, so, um. Well, I, uh, so I got this job at, say, business school at 20

[00:07:20] 2005. Yeah. So in a business school where I was a design research fellow, which was very unusual and still

[00:07:25] remains very unusual, and then taught, uh, my version of design thinking,

[00:07:30] service design mashup.

[00:07:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. On

[00:07:31] Lucy Kimbell : the MBA for about 15 years.

[00:07:33] Lucy Kimbell : Wow. And

[00:07:35] so, um, I've actually ended up. Teaching design or something like

[00:07:40] design more to managers, leaders, entrepreneurs, um, civil

[00:07:45] servants than to designers at this point.

[00:07:47] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:07:48] Lucy Kimbell : so I've, I've had a privilege of

[00:07:50] tracing that journey of design, kind of going up the value chain or sort of becoming

[00:07:55] recognized by leaders and entrepreneurs and activists.

[00:07:59] Lucy Kimbell : Like Goding

[00:08:00] has some special things. That it can bring to change, to action,

[00:08:05] to interven, indeed, government

[00:08:05] Gerry Scullion: and locals as well.

[00:08:06] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah.

[00:08:07] Gerry Scullion: Do we go up this road here?

[00:08:08] Lucy Kimbell : Um, we do. Or should we go

[00:08:10] the steps?

[00:08:10] Gerry Scullion: We do. Which do you prefer being out? Breath on

[00:08:12] Lucy Kimbell : this one, this one. It's quite,

[00:08:15] it's quite steep at the end. That's all right.

[00:08:16] Lucy Kimbell : People will

[00:08:17] Gerry Scullion: know how a road, oh, and this is the

[00:08:18] Lucy Kimbell : National Gallery where

[00:08:20] I think the, uh, Gomley show is here. It is. Goldsworthy, not Gomley. This way I

[00:08:25] think you were talking about. Yeah, this is, yeah. So this is, uh, uh, and sort of, uh,

[00:08:30] environmental art. Yeah. Look, 50 years. So I'm gonna go see that show later.

[00:08:33] Gerry Scullion: So you're,

[00:08:35] uh, also an artist, right?

[00:08:38] Gerry Scullion: You don't become and stop.

[00:08:40] You still are.

[00:08:41] Lucy Kimbell : Well, I studied an engineer, so I didn't really kind of, you know, I didn't have an art school

[00:08:45] legitimacy, although since I've now worked in Central St. Martins for 10 years, maybe some of that's rubbed off.

[00:08:50] Yeah. Uh,

[00:08:51] Gerry Scullion: so walk me through your art. As well before we come back

[00:08:55] onto, uh, policy and service stuff.

[00:08:58] Lucy Kimbell : So,

[00:09:00] uh, after my, uh, degree

[00:09:05] where I discovered I really wasn't a very good engineer. But I was very interested in

[00:09:10] technology and society and environment. Right. Uh, I lived in a couple of different

[00:09:15] places. I lived in Barcelona for a year. Nice. I lived in Warsaw, Poland for two years. Wow.

[00:09:20] 'cause it was that post-communist moment and I Okay.

[00:09:22] Lucy Kimbell : Wanted to see

[00:09:25] what happened and ended up living there for two years and running. Night club nights. Nice. Yeah.

[00:09:30] Yeah. During journalism,

[00:09:31] Gerry Scullion: I'll have to try and bring that back around the conversation to the club nights. I think that that might be a

[00:09:35] nice way to, I know

[00:09:35] Lucy Kimbell : I just do that in my kitchen. Go um, and embarrass my teenager.

[00:09:39] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. But

[00:09:39] Gerry Scullion: never. Ease are

[00:09:40] good. Ease are good. Alright, so, uh, so, so I'd,

[00:09:43] Lucy Kimbell : so I'd experienced the

[00:09:45] world right. As a, as a. You know, as a, you know, privileged white person from

[00:09:50] Britain. I'd spent a year in Sudan teaching English. I spent a year in Barcelona, basically teaching

[00:09:55] English.

[00:09:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:09:55] Lucy Kimbell : And hanging out. And I spent two years in Poland

[00:10:00] and then came back to, moved to London

[00:10:05] and worked at the BBC World Service for a bit.

[00:10:08] Lucy Kimbell : Wow. And had a hunger for

[00:10:10] something more, something creative, and ended up doing a master's. At, um,

[00:10:15] an art school within Middlesex University right where

[00:10:20] they taught us to, to, to program in c Ah, so it was a very unusual

[00:10:25] course, which the premise was if you're an artist, you need to understand

[00:10:30] your tools and craft your tools, not just use some software tools Yeah.

[00:10:34] Lucy Kimbell : That someone

[00:10:35] else has created. Yeah. And those days it was Photoshop too, right. Um, and I

[00:10:40] vaguely

[00:10:40] Gerry Scullion: remember too as well, but.

[00:10:42] Lucy Kimbell : So, so we had to program and see to, and

[00:10:45] it gave me a deep understanding, well, I dunno about deep, but some understanding of computation.

[00:10:50] Um, and so then I was much more involved in digital

[00:10:55] technology development and in 1996, we didn't call it user experience design.

[00:10:59] Gerry Scullion:

[00:11:00] Yeah. HCI, was it,

[00:11:01] Lucy Kimbell : uh, yeah, it was the early days of HCI.

[00:11:05] And so I did that for a while. Some kind of, somewhere between the

[00:11:10] art and me. Trying to make a living by doing what we now call,

[00:11:15] you know, web strategy or UX design. But we didn't call it that then.

[00:11:18] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:11:19] Lucy Kimbell : And then I

[00:11:20] went through that for a few years and then thought, why, why are these projects with so

[00:11:25] many millions of pounds churning out rubbish stuff?

[00:11:27] Lucy Kimbell : Right. Why is innovation and transformation so

[00:11:30] hard? Yeah. Why don't I. Try to go to academia to find out what's going on in

[00:11:35] these kind of projects.

[00:11:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:36] Lucy Kimbell : So then I

[00:11:40] ended up in academia and discovered that, okay, they have a lot of theories and

[00:11:45] concepts and knowledge about change, about the world, about people.

[00:11:48] Lucy Kimbell : Is that when you

[00:11:49] Gerry Scullion: first got

[00:11:50] exposed to what you probably call in a broader term design thinking?

[00:11:53] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, yeah, but that term, I

[00:11:55] didn't come across that till maybe. 2005 when I already had the

[00:12:00] job at Oxford, where I rocked up as this sort of weird artist, really. And I'm amazed they

[00:12:05] gave me the job, but I, my job was to be in a business school and do something around

[00:12:10] design.

[00:12:10] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Which quite frankly, I didn't know much about the mainstream of design. I knew the weird

[00:12:15] fringes. Yeah. Which intersected with art 'cause I'd been teaching at the Royal College.

[00:12:18] Gerry Scullion: But just say when you, they rocked up as a

[00:12:20] weird art. Yeah. I applied

[00:12:21] Lucy Kimbell : for the job. I applied for the job. Know you applied the

[00:12:22] Gerry Scullion: job, but what do you think they saw and what do you think they saw in you

[00:12:25] to give you that, that opportunity?

[00:12:26] Lucy Kimbell : Um, curiosity. Yeah. Uh, experimental

[00:12:30] experimentalism. Um, and, uh, and a critical thinking.

[00:12:34] Gerry Scullion: Do

[00:12:35] you think that still applies today? Like, it sounds to me that those three pieces are still

[00:12:40] one of the main things that you look for.

[00:12:42] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, yeah. Well, I think anyone who's a

[00:12:45] serious researcher could, should have those things.

[00:12:48] Lucy Kimbell : But actually a serious designer should, right?

[00:12:50] Curiosity, critical thinking to understand critically reflect on the conditions, which was

[00:12:55] a bit coming out at the conference, but could have come out more like what are the conditions that create the

[00:13:00] opportunities or block the conditions for good design, uh, co-creation,

[00:13:05] meaningful.

[00:13:05] Lucy Kimbell : Um, uh, addressing of today's challenges, right? Yeah. So what are the conditions? And for

[00:13:10] that, really you need a quite sociological, I would say, or anthropological understanding.

[00:13:15] Yeah. So design to trace

[00:13:16] Gerry Scullion: it back.

[00:13:17] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. To, and, and a world understanding of the worldview.

[00:13:20] Like what is the worldview, what are the ideologies, what are, what's, what's thinking is present, what assumptions are.

[00:13:25]

[00:13:25] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Not just on a project level, you know, what can we do in this project over the

[00:13:30] next year? But actually what, uh, how is the world understood? Yeah. Who, who

[00:13:35] has power and agency in that world? What has agency, for example,

[00:13:40] AI

[00:13:40] Gerry Scullion: now, Lucy,

[00:13:41] Lucy Kimbell : oh,

[00:13:42] Gerry Scullion: this was an idea to, to end at the

[00:13:45] castle. We're still gonna do it, right, but just as a disclaimer.

[00:13:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I might have a heart attack going up these

[00:13:50] steps. Okay. So if so. I love my wife and I love my children.

[00:13:55] You carry this camera back and publish it, won't you? Um, you've spent

[00:14:00] 20, 20 odd years in academia. You're working a policy design. We've spoken about

[00:14:05] the actual research.

[00:14:05] Lucy Kimbell : I work in the research on the research side.

[00:14:07] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. I don't really, I don't do it. I wouldn't claim to do it. Yeah,

[00:14:10]

[00:14:10] Gerry Scullion: but you're still around the. The world of policy.

[00:14:14] Lucy Kimbell :

[00:14:15] Yeah. So that you actually, to link back to your earlier question, so that report, uh, that got launched by the cabinet

[00:14:20] office and the policy profession, which is a, uh, civil service, UK civil

[00:14:25] service, um, yeah.

[00:14:25] Lucy Kimbell : Capability across government. Um, that

[00:14:30] report was to try and bring some clarification to the multiple sets of

[00:14:35] terms that coexist. So this digital design, this content design.

[00:14:40] There's service design, service design, and there's interactions design and there's

[00:14:45] policy design, like how do we make sense of all these things?

[00:14:47] Lucy Kimbell : And for design people, you have your, your,

[00:14:50] your club, your crew, your, your bit of it. But yeah, it, there needed to be some joining up and

[00:14:55] some more coherence in relation to existing understandings of public administration. So the

[00:15:00] paper that I, um. Contributed to, I'm now getting out of breath. That's

[00:15:04] Gerry Scullion: all

[00:15:05] right.

[00:15:05] Gerry Scullion: We stand here for a minute and catch our breath and we continue. Uh,

[00:15:07] Lucy Kimbell : is is co-authored with, um, three professors

[00:15:10] of political science or various aspects of public administration studies who

[00:15:15] bring that deeper understanding of government that I don't have. And then we tried to mash up the

[00:15:20] knowledge to make it useful to create some frameworks and thinking.

[00:15:24] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, and to

[00:15:25] synthesize some of the stuff that come outta the civil services own research.

[00:15:28] Gerry Scullion: What, what are the thoughts in your own

[00:15:30] perspective, the term public design?

[00:15:34] Lucy Kimbell : So

[00:15:35] that term, where

[00:15:36] Gerry Scullion: did it come from?

[00:15:37] Lucy Kimbell : So, during the process of commissioning that

[00:15:40] research, which included multiple different elements led by um, Andy Knight in this, uh, who's a

[00:15:45] civil servant in the UK government, he suggested this term and I was on the advisory board at that

[00:15:50] time with another, um, with Liz Richardson, who's a.

[00:15:52] Lucy Kimbell : Professor of, I don't know,

[00:15:55] politics or something at University of Manchester. Yeah. So we were dealing with the fact that there were all these different

[00:16:00] bits Yeah. Bits of terminology. And what was the terminology? 'cause it isn't just policy design or

[00:16:05] design for policy. Yeah. You know, your, the design of a digital thing is within a policy context, so how to

[00:16:10] make sense of it.

[00:16:11] Lucy Kimbell : And I do think it was Andy that might have suggested that term and we debated it and thought, yeah,

[00:16:15] that probably will work. But there isn't a current definition. So one of the jobs, our academic paper is

[00:16:20] within the. Wider set of documents is to say, okay, let's try and attempt to

[00:16:25] first go a definition.

[00:16:26] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. And it's by no means definitive. Um, it's just saying this is what it could

[00:16:30] be. And one of the differences between say, public design and design in

[00:16:35] general, or design that's got a commercial orientation, sorry,

[00:16:38] Gerry Scullion: sorry.

[00:16:40]

[00:16:40] Lucy Kimbell : Is that, um, a sense of legitimacy, right? To who is the

[00:16:45] designing and the design, uh, to whom does it have legitimacy and

[00:16:50] accountability and

[00:16:50] Gerry Scullion: impact and

[00:16:51] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:52] Lucy Kimbell : But who's and the impact of the impact of positive or negative?

[00:16:55] Who's it accountable to? Yeah. Right. And so democratic institutions, democratic processes

[00:17:00] can. Possibly provide that legitimacy. So that's a word that is in our

[00:17:05] definition of public design somehow. Yeah, because

[00:17:06] Gerry Scullion: I know in the audience, a lot of people are like, oh

[00:17:08] Lucy Kimbell : yeah,

[00:17:10]

[00:17:10] Gerry Scullion: really another, another term.

[00:17:11] Gerry Scullion: Like, you know, like, it's kind of like, I, I

[00:17:15] know. How do you solve something like that? Like, you know, there's, there's industries built off certain terminologies.

[00:17:20] Well, this,

[00:17:20] Lucy Kimbell : this design thinking as you remember, you know, was basically a term You're keep going. Yeah. Yeah. I,

[00:17:25] I caught my breath now. Thank you.

[00:17:26] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. My heart rate's gone

[00:17:27] Gerry Scullion: back down to 150.

[00:17:28] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. I can actually check

[00:17:30] mine do live data tracking using my, my new Apple watch share that later. My brother,

[00:17:35] that my brother gave me.

[00:17:36] Gerry Scullion: Oh, nice.

[00:17:38] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, so

[00:17:40] yeah, so the terminology, you know, it has fads, right? Yeah. So design thinking, okay. It actually existed

[00:17:45] as a term from, say, the.

[00:17:46] Lucy Kimbell : 1980s. That's right. Through academic researchers trying

[00:17:50] to un study. You go first

[00:17:50] Gerry Scullion: there. Okay.

[00:17:53] Lucy Kimbell : Thank you. Thank you.

[00:17:55]

[00:17:57] Gerry Scullion: Can keep going. We've got this.

[00:17:59] Lucy Kimbell : So

[00:18:00] academic researchers trying to um, uh, capture

[00:18:05] and define and articulate something distinctive that they saw in

[00:18:10] designers, professional designers, and how they approach designing. Design

[00:18:15] cognition would be another term for that. And then in 2000 5, 6, 7, and then eight

[00:18:20] actually with the publication in Harvard Business Review.

[00:18:22] Lucy Kimbell : One Consultancy, IDO.

[00:18:25]

[00:18:25] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Is

[00:18:25] Lucy Kimbell : trying to go up the value chain. And starts using that term. As

[00:18:30] you know, we're just doing the method and the methodology rather with a set of methods,

[00:18:35] and that's our value proposition. Yeah. That's a commercial. And so then everyone's talking about design thinking and it's

[00:18:40] quite removed from the craft.

[00:18:42] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Or crafts, plural of

[00:18:45] designing and the very specific context in which that has happened.

[00:18:49] Gerry Scullion:

[00:18:50] It's funny because I remember way back at that point being interviewed in Australia and

[00:18:55] someone said to me, do you do design thinking? And I go, um, what do you mean? Like, and they

[00:19:00] go, do you do design thinking?

[00:19:01] Gerry Scullion: And I go, I'm a designer.

[00:19:03] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, it was

[00:19:03] Gerry Scullion: native.

[00:19:04] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah,

[00:19:05] exactly.

[00:19:05] Gerry Scullion: Experimentation a piece. So that was kind of like the, the

[00:19:10] point, uh, it's interesting about public design and that

[00:19:15] terminology that it was, it was quite triggering in the conference where people were saying, actually,

[00:19:20] you know, what does this add noise?

[00:19:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Or does this add clarity?

[00:19:24] Lucy Kimbell :

[00:19:25] Yeah. So we don't know. Right. And yet, you know, in five years time, if

[00:19:30] people are still using the term Yeah. You know, maybe, maybe there's a shift, right? Yeah. Maybe there isn't. Um, but you

[00:19:35] gotta

[00:19:35] Gerry Scullion: try, you gotta experiment. Yeah.

[00:19:37] Lucy Kimbell : But there is something about the legitimacy

[00:19:40] required to, for, for public institutions or activists.

[00:19:44] Lucy Kimbell :

[00:19:45] Claiming or, or, or civil service organ, uh, civil society organizations doing design

[00:19:50] work, claiming legitimacy. Like, here's a public problem. This is something that needs to be attended

[00:19:55] to.

[00:19:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:19:55] Lucy Kimbell : We are

[00:19:57] Gerry Scullion: causing,

[00:19:58] Lucy Kimbell : causing a blockage. We're

[00:19:59] Gerry Scullion:

[00:20:00] not, we're casually walking along the royal mile

[00:20:05] on our way to Edinburgh Castle.

[00:20:07] Lucy Kimbell : There's some crown jewels in here.

[00:20:09] Gerry Scullion: There

[00:20:10] is,

[00:20:10] Lucy Kimbell : yeah. I came here actually to Ted. Uh, I showed some

[00:20:15] artwork at Ted's in 2011, which I'd forgotten in here. Uh, yeah. Here and,

[00:20:20] uh, the castle, it being Ted and lots of money in the ticket. Some of large amount of money. Ah. Uh,

[00:20:25] we had a reception in the castle and we got to go around the royal apartments.

[00:20:29] Lucy Kimbell : I think

[00:20:30] it was. And so the Scottish crown jewels,

[00:20:32] Gerry Scullion: can I ask you more around where you see service

[00:20:35] design now? 'cause like it's really interesting to get your perspective when

[00:20:40] this report has been dropped, got public design. What do you see at the forefront

[00:20:45] of the things that people within service design should gain

[00:20:50] more visibility and understanding of?

[00:20:52] Lucy Kimbell : So, uh,

[00:20:55] one of the good things about the concept that's over here,

[00:20:58] Gerry Scullion: so we're not in the way.

[00:20:59] Lucy Kimbell :

[00:21:00] Tourists. Yeah. Including us.

[00:21:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:21:02] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, one of the

[00:21:05] good things about the conference is this emphasis on

[00:21:10] inclusion and accessibility and, uh,

[00:21:15] co-create meaningful co-creation and the conditions for that 'cause of, for example, accessibility.

[00:21:19] Lucy Kimbell :

[00:21:20] Take a

[00:21:20] Gerry Scullion: seat here and we'll put this down.

[00:21:21] Lucy Kimbell : Data. Sit, sitting.

[00:21:22] Gerry Scullion: Sit on the stand. You okay doing

[00:21:24] Lucy Kimbell : that? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

[00:21:25] Lovely view over there. So, um, so that's all great,

[00:21:30] but what's absent, glaringly absent and very hard for anyone to talk about is

[00:21:35] politics. Um, the moment that we live in, uh. Uh, competing

[00:21:40] ideologies, fragmentation, populism, and not just dismissing populists, uh, you know,

[00:21:45] from a liberal perspective, which is basically my perspective.

[00:21:48] Lucy Kimbell : Liberal stroke, communitarian. Yeah.

[00:21:50] Um, to, to dismiss them and go, well, they're populists or, or, or, or, worse the difference. Fascist. But

[00:21:55] actually why is it? That, um, people, some people are so

[00:22:00] disengaged, distrustful the institutions, uh,

[00:22:05] many of the public servants, including those at this conference, are absolutely well-meaning trying to do their best,

[00:22:10] but actually public institutions, uh, are failing on a large

[00:22:15] scale.

[00:22:15] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, and um, and I, we haven't even talked about climate,

[00:22:20] so, um, so we're not talking about that at the conference at all. I know. And it's

[00:22:25] very hard to talk about other than in more general terms, like, oh, design should be, um,

[00:22:29] Gerry Scullion:

[00:22:30] thinking of all these things. It's a little bit more. It's like myself, mark and Owen

[00:22:35] from Dublin City gave a talk about service architecture and providing the scaffolding for service design.

[00:22:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:22:40] Um, and I, I lighten it to, um, getting the conditions right for set

[00:22:45] sailing and being able to have your compass in place so you know where you're gonna go. And without that

[00:22:50] scaffolding, um, it's very difficult to, to navigate these. Tumultuous

[00:22:55] times. Um, what do you, what are your thoughts on

[00:23:00] moving the dial forward within organizations who are maybe struggling with service design,

[00:23:05] adoption, uh, leadership or falling behind and, you know,

[00:23:10] starting to just crunch on the numbers?

[00:23:11] Gerry Scullion: And we fall into that times of austerity where

[00:23:15] design suddenly has to do more with less.

[00:23:17] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Uh, and at a time when

[00:23:20] ai, uh, being pushed by, um, started to bite investors. Yes. Uh, being

[00:23:25] pushed by tech companies who have something to sell and, um, um,

[00:23:30] for those seeking simple answers, let's invest in a load of technology to sort of wrap.

[00:23:34] Lucy Kimbell : AI

[00:23:35] can do our job. Yeah. AI can do everybody's jobs and make things better. Right. Yeah. So we do know we collectively

[00:23:40] need things to be better, but. Outsourcing it to, uh, technologies, uh,

[00:23:45] and the, the, the governance of that and, you know, leaving everything in the control of four

[00:23:50] global companies is, is, is extremely worrying.

[00:23:52] Gerry Scullion: What's the risk there though, for, like, say a a, the

[00:23:55] work that you're doing now with that? Public design is kind of local government level in the uk, correct?

[00:23:59] Lucy Kimbell : No,

[00:24:00] no, no. It's national. National. That was definitely national government. Yeah.

[00:24:03] Gerry Scullion: Okay. So

[00:24:05] leaders in there saying, actually, you know what, there's an opportunity here for AI to disrupt and add

[00:24:10] value.

[00:24:10] Gerry Scullion: Was that something that was discussed in the, the curation of the report that the threat, that that can give

[00:24:15] that kind of weak leadership?

[00:24:17] Lucy Kimbell : No, not enough. And that's partly because a lot of the

[00:24:20] work was done in 2023. Right. Okay.

[00:24:22] Gerry Scullion: Before it started, it was actually

[00:24:23] Lucy Kimbell : published in

[00:24:25] 2025. Yeah. Because of the slow processes of,

[00:24:26] Gerry Scullion: of

[00:24:27] Lucy Kimbell : governments getting numbers of documents.

[00:24:28] Lucy Kimbell : Together.

[00:24:30] Um, what, and also it was never trying to be definitive and fully comprehensive. Yeah. It was actually relatively resource

[00:24:35] light, even though it's 70 or 80,000 words. So a book, book size? Yeah. It is a book. It is a book. Uh,

[00:24:40] if you print it all out, uh, however, uh, it's actually quite partial and

[00:24:45] it's, it's more a stepping stone.

[00:24:46] Lucy Kimbell : Like here's, here's a way of thinking about it. Yeah. And it's addressed to those, those senior

[00:24:50] leaders. And when we had the launch event, um, as at UAL at University of

[00:24:55] the Arts, London, in July, we had a minister from the cabinet office, Georgia Gould mp.

[00:25:00] Who of course has since been moved on in a reshuffle.

[00:25:02] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, and, uh, so as director

[00:25:05] general to a very senior civil servant, uh, Janet Hughes, a Minister for civil Service,

[00:25:10] so not Minister civils, risk efficiency reform, these kinds of words is her job title in the cabinet

[00:25:15] office. So to have those two people, the political side and the senior civil servant, it

[00:25:20] gives a close and, and some other speaking saying design this

[00:25:25] capability, uh, is doing all sorts of things already.

[00:25:27] Lucy Kimbell : It's already in lot of. Pockets. Yeah. And, and it has the potential

[00:25:30] to help government address its problems. Yeah. And AI is one of the other things along with

[00:25:35] other capabilities and resources. So it's just a stepping bestow Yeah. To sort of pull things

[00:25:40] together and go. But, but, but more work will be done by those civil servants.

[00:25:43] Lucy Kimbell : I'm, you know, I'm a

[00:25:45] mere academic on the outside. No,

[00:25:46] Gerry Scullion: you're a world class academic who's produced some stuff, not just blowing smoke,

[00:25:50] but like myself and Mark who were doing that talk from Snappy, like, you know, we've worked

[00:25:55] together for a long time and Mark really. Cares about helping as many

[00:26:00] organizations as possible and the, the journey management side of things, for as

[00:26:05] long as I've known Mark, he's been trying to, you know, pioneer this kind of mindset.

[00:26:09] Gerry Scullion: What, what do you

[00:26:10] think, um, you know, is there an opportunity there for people within

[00:26:15] government to lean into this kind of thinking, to be more strategic Here you take my coat. No, I'm not gonna take your coat.

[00:26:20] Uh,

[00:26:20] Lucy Kimbell : but we might walk rather than sit here. My house. No, thank you. I don't think it sees me. It's very nice though.

[00:26:24] Lucy Kimbell : Thanks.

[00:26:25] Is it, is it Irish, Scottish? I assume it's Irish.

[00:26:26] Gerry Scullion: It's, um, from a, a boutique, uh,

[00:26:30] called, um, Marx and Spencers. Is it called the Marx and Spencers Boutique? Yeah. Marks, I got it

[00:26:35] last week. It's a long story, but I've had to, you know, basically procure a range of hats due to

[00:26:40] some, uh, Australian damage to my scalp.

[00:26:43] Gerry Scullion: Oh, the sun made 14 years the sun.

[00:26:44] Lucy Kimbell : Yes.

[00:26:45]

[00:26:45] Gerry Scullion: So hence why I have to wear it to reduce the UV on my, on my scalp for the time being.

[00:26:49] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah.

[00:26:50] There's not, I don't think there's a lot of sun in, uh, Edinburgh this, this week,

[00:26:54] Gerry Scullion: like my

[00:26:55] doctor said, you'd be surprised. Just keep it on for me for the time being. Okay. But, um,

[00:26:59] Lucy Kimbell : yeah,

[00:26:59] Gerry Scullion:

[00:27:00] we, we, we'll wrap up this up now in a second, like, you know.

[00:27:02] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What are you working on at the moment? What's. Oh,

[00:27:05] what's exciting, Lucy, for the next,

[00:27:06] Lucy Kimbell : uh, a book. I'm writing a book about this book, the Future of

[00:27:10] Design. Sorry, another book? Yeah. Uh uh, so this book, the current title is Futures for

[00:27:15] Design Scenarios for Uncertain Worlds. So we talked, um, not

[00:27:18] Gerry Scullion: applicable at all to

[00:27:20] where we're at now.

[00:27:20] Gerry Scullion: Everything is stable.

[00:27:23] Lucy Kimbell : So I'm looking at professionalized

[00:27:25] design, both. Service design, design thinking, product designer. So it's, it's

[00:27:30] trying to be, uh, uh, not too grand and pompous and cover every,

[00:27:35] all design globally. That would be ridiculous. Yeah. Uh, however, trying to identify

[00:27:40] some, um, some of those conditions.

[00:27:42] Lucy Kimbell : Some of the dilemmas and possibilities and map out

[00:27:45] what those questions are, which include, well, what? What's the core of design? So at the moment, in

[00:27:50] 2025, we assume, oh, it's this, this, and this. These are the core things. Yeah. But that's contingent. That's

[00:27:55] 'cause of a set of things and contemporary capitalism and the ideologies and the worlds we

[00:28:00] live in and how things got to be as they are now.

[00:28:02] Lucy Kimbell : Sure. How things might be in 10 years

[00:28:05] time. Uh, and even if we just reduce it to a sort of global sa uh, global north rather, uh,

[00:28:10] uh, context, things are changing and will change. So I'm trying to map

[00:28:15] out what some of those factors might be. And it's to a combination of reading loads of futures

[00:28:20] reports, um, about 20 interviews with various design leaders from.

[00:28:24] Lucy Kimbell : On context,

[00:28:25] different industries and countries and context work and, um, a project with some of

[00:28:30] our, uh, graduates, a sort of practice project. Fantastic. Um, some workshops and something else. Oh,

[00:28:35] academic literature, like on business models right there. Academic literature, exploring, you know, to look at

[00:28:40] about business models change.

[00:28:42] Lucy Kimbell : Um, water profession is. Yeah. Is

[00:28:45] design a profession? Not really. Or depends how you conceptualize profession. So I'm taking some of this Oh wow.

[00:28:50] Looking at some of these questions and trying to put it all together into a useful book. When's it

[00:28:53] Gerry Scullion: gonna be out?

[00:28:54] Lucy Kimbell :

[00:28:55] Um, at the end of 2026, I think.

[00:28:57] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Well I'm the first person to interview when that book comes out.

[00:28:59] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:29:00] Guaranteed. Right. Okay. Alright. Just look, thanks so much for your time today and, uh, thank you Julie. I'll put the links to your. LinkedIn,

[00:29:05] are you active on LinkedIn? Yeah. Yeah. Any other thing? Newsletter. Do you have a newsletter or anything you want to share? Not yet.

[00:29:10] Share. Okay. Well you can find Lucy on all of those respective channels.

[00:29:14] Gerry Scullion: Thanks

[00:29:15] much for your time today. Thank you and I'll you

[00:29:16] Lucy Kimbell : soon. Thank

[00:29:20]

[00:29:25] you.

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