Shape of Play: Insights from Mattel's Global Research Study with MADO's Jaclyn Suzuki

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of this eight cd. My name is Gerry

[00:00:05] Scullion, and in today's episode, I'm joined with a wonderful Jacqueline Suzuki

[00:00:10] co-founder of Insights and Innovations Agency in the US called Maddo. And to

[00:00:15] dive into the most fascinating research projects I've seen in years, it's called The Shape of

[00:00:20] Play, and it was a global study commissioned by Mattel.

[00:00:24] Gerry Scullion: We'll know

[00:00:25] them from the toy. The toys that created from my childhood exploring

[00:00:30] how and why we play. In this episode, we unpack insights

[00:00:35] from 33,000 people across seven different countries, revealing not

[00:00:40] only how play is evolving, but why it matters more than ever. So

[00:00:45] here are the three key takeaways from this episode.

[00:00:47] Gerry Scullion: So play isn't just for kids. It's a

[00:00:50] powerful antidote to modern stress across every stage from toddlers to

[00:00:55] seniors. There are six play personalities derived from the study, which I think is gonna be

[00:01:00] really interesting for us to listen and learn. And that is the skill seekers to memory

[00:01:05] makers helping us understand how different people find joy, connection, and wellbeing.

[00:01:09] Gerry Scullion: The

[00:01:10] leading brands like Mattel are working in the open sharing research to help advance

[00:01:15] how society thinks about creativity. I think that's a fantastic way to, to rethink about the research that

[00:01:20] we do as a community. They lean into the community and the emotional health aspects of this work too.

[00:01:25] Now we also touch on digital play, the future of family rituals and the incredible cultural

[00:01:30] differences and similarities that show up in homes from Finland to China

[00:01:35] and the us.

[00:01:36] Gerry Scullion: If you're a change maker, educator, or designer, working to make the

[00:01:40] world a better and more human centered place, this really is a most listen. And hey, if

[00:01:45] you wanna kickstart a human-centered service design approach in your organization, please don't

[00:01:50] forget to sign up for my free five day email course.

[00:01:53] Gerry Scullion: The link is in the description, or you can just go

[00:01:55] to this is hcd.com and learn more. Now, let's jump in straight into this episode.

[00:02:00]

[00:02:05]

[00:02:09] Gerry Scullion: Tell us a

[00:02:10] little bit about yourself, where you're from and what.

[00:02:14] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:02:15] Yeah, I, um, I'm the founder and director of Motto and we

[00:02:20] are an insights and innovation strategy agency outta Portland, Oregon in the States.

[00:02:25] Um, we help

[00:02:30] brands understand change, basically, and so that's like

[00:02:35] cultural shifts, cultural trends, as well as shifting consumer needs.

[00:02:39] Jaclyn Suzuki: And

[00:02:40] use that analysis to identify opportunities to serve

[00:02:45] people better, so innovate, uh, in a human centered way.

[00:02:50] And, um, I've been running motto with my business partner for

[00:02:55] almost eight years. For that I was creative director at Zebra Design. Okay.

[00:03:00] Um, global agency and had the opportunity to work and live in Tokyo

[00:03:05] for a couple years.

[00:03:06] Jaclyn Suzuki: Ah, um, my son was born there. I

[00:03:10] inherited this, uh, or I, I married into this awesome name. Yep.

[00:03:15] Um, the design community loves and yeah.

[00:03:20] Um, let's see. Before that, uh.

[00:03:25]

[00:03:27] Jaclyn Suzuki: Love for the technical and the

[00:03:30] logical, but I also studied fine art and love that creative, um, design

[00:03:35] sensibility and try to try to marry the two in, in the projects that we take on And

[00:03:40] mm, you know, I think that's where the interesting, yeah. Things have been when

[00:03:45] this, this. Team across those lines.

[00:03:50]

[00:03:50] Gerry Scullion: Now you actually reached out and um, you know, we got, we

[00:03:55] got these kind of, I wouldn't call them spammy, but a lot of PR people had me to

[00:04:00] these lists about getting guests on and I was like pleasantly surprised.

[00:04:04] Gerry Scullion:

[00:04:05] And I saw your email come through and Matt.

[00:04:10]

[00:04:14] Gerry Scullion: The

[00:04:15] change of play. And I guess that's what we wanna talk a little bit more around today. So

[00:04:20] tell us, um, about the project and how it came

[00:04:25] about.

[00:04:26] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah, absolutely. This was a, a dream project.

[00:04:30] It was, um, great. We had great partners. It's called the Shape of Play. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:35] And it's a global study about how and why people

[00:04:40] of all ages.

[00:04:44] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um,

[00:04:45] a fun topic and an important topic, and, and that was

[00:04:50] cemented, um, for us after we went out into the field and learned from

[00:04:55] people. Um, which I can, I am happy to share. Um, yeah,

[00:05:00] as many insights as I can.

[00:05:04] Gerry Scullion: Tell

[00:05:05] me, like, so I, I, yeah. I was waiting for the first insight to come out. Okay.

[00:05:09] Jaclyn Suzuki: Well, I,

[00:05:10] I was gonna, I'll just roll right into it, but I didn't know you

[00:05:12] Gerry Scullion: basically, like in the email we were talking

[00:05:15] about, I think there was 33,000, is that right? Yeah. Um,

[00:05:20] participants, could that be right?

[00:05:22] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yes, that's right. We.

[00:05:25]

[00:05:25] Jaclyn Suzuki: So Mattel has a state-of-the-art play lab, um, play

[00:05:30] Labs, a network across the globe. And they, they study how

[00:05:35] kids and people play with toys, and it is embedded into their product

[00:05:40] design process. And it's, it's an incredible, amazing, um, but this project was a little bit

[00:05:45] different because. They

[00:05:50] wanted to get a broader view of play outside of their portfolio of toys

[00:05:55] and just this larger sense of what is going on.

[00:05:58] Jaclyn Suzuki: And so we really

[00:06:00] wanted to have the scope and the breadth to, to really make sure we were picking everything up.

[00:06:05] So, um, 33,000 people that, um, was across seven

[00:06:10] countries. Um, and

[00:06:15] then we also. In homes in over

[00:06:20] 20 homes in three countries, and we're able to

[00:06:25] mix kind of quant, qual, and we did some expert interviews as well.

[00:06:28] Jaclyn Suzuki: Some foresight, foresight lens

[00:06:30] to build this perspective on play. And

[00:06:35] at the, at the highest level, it's just today,

[00:06:40] there is so much stress and that that shows up

[00:06:45] in two year olds. Middle schoolers,

[00:06:50] young adults, seniors, like across the whole spectrum there there's

[00:06:55] stress and it's concerning. And what we found were people were

[00:07:00] kind of reinventing how play, how they come to play in

[00:07:05] order to, um, offset that stress and, and create like a

[00:07:10] healthy, um, balance in their life.

[00:07:12] Jaclyn Suzuki: And so. It

[00:07:15] really was evolving, I think in the past play has been maybe

[00:07:20] for children or for recess, or for certain times and

[00:07:25] occasions. Right. Um, and what we saw was it was,

[00:07:30] it's, it's morphing. It's becoming a little bit more, you can inject a moment of play here or there in

[00:07:35] the day.

[00:07:40]

[00:07:43] Jaclyn Suzuki: Consider organizing a

[00:07:45] form of play.

[00:07:46] Gerry Scullion: So, so, so let's take, take a step back to the,

[00:07:50] the brief, I guess. Yeah. What was Mattel looking to get outta the,

[00:07:55] this, this study? What was their objectives?

[00:07:57] Jaclyn Suzuki: Great idea. Great question. Um,

[00:08:00]

[00:08:03] Jaclyn Suzuki: Matt.

[00:08:05]

[00:08:10]

[00:08:10] Jaclyn Suzuki: Where culture's headed, where people's needs are headed so that they could

[00:08:15] better, um, meet them into new, in new

[00:08:20] spaces, new with new products, with new moving into new categories, um, really to help

[00:08:25] shift and evolve their, their brand as a whole, which is a, yeah, which is a

[00:08:30] major goal and signals like a real true

[00:08:35] curiosity, I think, of the organization.

[00:08:37] Jaclyn Suzuki: Which is nice. And then there was the second goal

[00:08:40] too, which was from the onset, kudos to the Mattel team. They

[00:08:45] wanted to share this. They knew they wanted to share this work publicly and have

[00:08:50] it be something that not only inspired their employees and their designers,

[00:08:55] but outwardly inspired the public, inspired their

[00:09:00] creative partners, you know, outside of their walls, um, teachers, policy

[00:09:05] makers, and so.

[00:09:07] Jaclyn Suzuki: I mean, this is something I wanted to talk about with you

[00:09:10] is I think today the leading brands

[00:09:15] really share their cutting edge research, right? And,

[00:09:20] and they're looking to advance the category as a whole, or they're, you know,

[00:09:25] society as a whole through.

[00:09:30]

[00:09:30] Jaclyn Suzuki: And helping Tide,

[00:09:35]

[00:09:35] Gerry Scullion: I.

[00:09:40]

[00:09:43] Gerry Scullion: Is that, is that public now? 'cause I know when we were

[00:09:45] emailing there was an embargo on It is public.

[00:09:47] Jaclyn Suzuki: It's public. Yeah. When I

[00:09:48] Gerry Scullion: looked, looked, I

[00:09:50] was, um, unable to obviously, you know, kind of find out Okay. Find out more,

[00:09:55] but I'll send it. Yeah. Talk to us about the, um, the activities that went around,

[00:10:00] uh, the actual conducting of that research you mentioned.

[00:10:05]

[00:10:07] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um. Well, we,

[00:10:10] we, we conducted research in the states, um, in la

[00:10:15] and um, then we went to China, we went to

[00:10:20] Shenzhen and, um, the third country, we debated

[00:10:25] a for a while, but we landed on Finland. It had just been

[00:10:30] named the Happiest Country for the seventh year in a row.

[00:10:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:10:33] Jaclyn Suzuki: And we really

[00:10:35] wanted to,

[00:10:35] Gerry Scullion: made them happy,

[00:10:39] Jaclyn Suzuki: proud.

[00:10:40] Um, we wanted to, you know, understand the, the connection

[00:10:45] between play and happiness. And it was, it was a really, really unique perspective there. Um.

[00:10:50] And

[00:10:51] Gerry Scullion: what is the connection ju just when you just, that's the sort of thing that I mightn't be able to

[00:10:55] come back to in the conversation. W was that, um, included in the initial

[00:11:00] brief, is that something that Mattel care about, um, making

[00:11:05] the connection or is the connection there between happiness and play?

[00:11:09] Gerry Scullion:

[00:11:10] Like may maybe define what is the connection I.

[00:11:15]

[00:11:18] Jaclyn Suzuki: It was not in the original

[00:11:20] brief. So our team worked with the Mattel team to

[00:11:25] identify a framework. Um, I think we started out with the hypothesis framework based on

[00:11:30] trend research, um, around the, the kind of

[00:11:35] the psychological, uh, underpinnings of, of the

[00:11:40] meaning of play. Yeah. And we knew happiness was in

[00:11:45] there.

[00:11:45] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um. When we came out of the project, we have this

[00:11:50] play motivations framework, which is kind of our, our foundational framework.

[00:11:55] I have a little gamified artifact of it here. Yeah, no. This

[00:12:00] is why we play. And, um, there's four

[00:12:05] basically, joy, joy and happiness is surrounding,

[00:12:10] it's. It's all around. It's why we play.

[00:12:13] Jaclyn Suzuki: But beyond that,

[00:12:15] and, and we all know that intuitively, right? It's like when we play, we laugh, we smile, we just feel

[00:12:20] good. It's, it's kind of inexplainable and at the same time it's intuitive and human right.

[00:12:25] Um, but beyond that, what we found was there's four kind of deeper

[00:12:30] reasons why people are drawn to play and.

[00:12:35]

[00:12:37] Jaclyn Suzuki: And so those are playing for

[00:12:40] wellbeing. Mm-hmm. And we heard people talking about playing as a way to heal,

[00:12:45] heal trauma, to de-stress, to refuel,

[00:12:50] to go back into the, you know, realities of today, um,

[00:12:55] realities and responsibilities. We heard people playing for

[00:13:00] growth and in that's beyond like.

[00:13:05] Educational play, right.

[00:13:06] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, but growing for like

[00:13:10] character development and leadership skills and emotional intelligence and some

[00:13:15] of the, the softer skills of, of what it means to grow as a, as a person.

[00:13:20] Um, and then we heard about play for a connection to

[00:13:25] other people. And this was big. Um, you know. So

[00:13:30] over 80% of people across the globe agreed that play has

[00:13:35] the power to solve isolation and loneliness.

[00:13:38] Jaclyn Suzuki: Wow. And yeah, when we

[00:13:40] talked to people it was like a really strong motivator to play is to

[00:13:45] kind of, you know, screens are involved in a lot of play, but.

[00:13:50] But also it's a reason to kind of put the screen down and meet with people face to face.

[00:13:55] And I think because that is a little more rare today, it becomes more special and

[00:14:00] more sacred.

[00:14:00] Jaclyn Suzuki: So that, mm-hmm. That was really powerful. And then the fourth big play

[00:14:05] motivation was, is expression. People play to express themselves and

[00:14:10] be creative. And that, that's always been true, but in today's time of with

[00:14:15] technology and automation and. It also feels a little more

[00:14:20] special to be able to express our creativity in a playful, kind of low

[00:14:25] stakes, low risk way.

[00:14:27] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, so that, that

[00:14:30] of. The nutshell, the motivations surrounding the

[00:14:35] happiness

[00:14:36] Gerry Scullion: theory and in the, that's, that's a great episode. Thank you so only

[00:14:40] joking. There's so much to unpack in that, like, you know, and

[00:14:45] when you were speaking there, um, it just reminded me of something that happened on the

[00:14:50] weekend. Yeah.

[00:14:50] Gerry Scullion: Where my, my youngest Sam turns six

[00:14:55] and usually. There's a birthday party and there was a birthday party.

[00:15:00] Um, but in this instance, he decided to have a day with us. And what he wanted to

[00:15:05] do instead was he wanted to go to this place in dub called Tastic

[00:15:10] and they do laser tag. I had not played laser tag. Oh, I'm

[00:15:15] old.

[00:15:15] Gerry Scullion: Am I now? I'm 21. So, um.

[00:15:20]

[00:15:25]

[00:15:26] Gerry Scullion: Um, I was really, I was probably like in my, in my teens. Yeah. And

[00:15:30] it was one of the best releases that I had right. In

[00:15:35] probably a decade I. In front of my own eyes

[00:15:40] because I was playing against another birthday party. Everyone was probably like, I cannot believe disclosing this.

[00:15:45] I was playing against another birthday party who were, they were 10 and 11 years old, and

[00:15:50] I did not think that I was 45.

[00:15:52] Gerry Scullion: Like I.

[00:15:55] At the end of it, I had to nearly apologize to that other team.

[00:15:58] Jaclyn Suzuki: Did you just go full

[00:16:00] animal?

[00:16:00] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I went, I went like Jack Black kind of mode into it. Oh,

[00:16:05] fun tumbling around. Yeah, and my, both my kids said, um,

[00:16:10] I'm, I'm embarrassing, but we won't speak too much about that. But that.

[00:16:15]

[00:16:20]

[00:16:20] Gerry Scullion: What I'm really interested to ask you, because, you know, getting

[00:16:25] exposed to one, one.

[00:16:29] Gerry Scullion: Why do

[00:16:30] people, do you feel kind of fall out of love or fall out of

[00:16:35] Um, just, just doing play like as part of their, because at the moment my

[00:16:40] kids, they didn't get as much release out of it obviously as I did. Um,

[00:16:45] they were like, yeah, that was good fun. And I was like, that was the best day that I've in a

[00:16:50] long time.

[00:16:51] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Stop and.

[00:16:55]

[00:16:59] Gerry Scullion: Why aren't more

[00:17:00] people doing this?

[00:17:01] Jaclyn Suzuki: I love that. And I, I honestly had the same

[00:17:05] feeling. I, you know, I work with creatives, I mean design,

[00:17:10] and I thought I was a playful person. And then doing this project, I was like, wow, but I haven't

[00:17:15] really made time for play. I'm busy. I'm working parent. Um, yeah,

[00:17:20] you know, we're kind of in survival mode sometimes, right at.

[00:17:25]

[00:17:26] Jaclyn Suzuki: I think a lot of people feel that way and

[00:17:30] um, although I do think we're seeing, you know,

[00:17:35] compared to 20, 30 years ago, it's more socially acceptable, I think, for

[00:17:40] adults to play now. Yeah. Um, you've got, you know, and you've got pickle ball. I don't

[00:17:45] know, that's like a mania here. I don't know if it's.

[00:17:50]

[00:17:51] Jaclyn Suzuki: And yeah, we, we were really inspired. We got the

[00:17:55] chance to talk to two, um, 70 plus year olds, uh,

[00:18:00] in, in their homes. And yeah. The, wow, I

[00:18:05] mean, the sense of play you can have at any age is just so inspiring and it,

[00:18:10] it clearly is so, um, rejuvenating and rerated and

[00:18:15] fuels, fuels longevity. Right. And there are,

[00:18:20] there are studies on that.

[00:18:21] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, so yeah, I, I think,

[00:18:25] I think the seriousness and the competition of life gets, kind of pulls,

[00:18:30] pulls adults away. Um, I think there's a push, uh,

[00:18:35] and this is interesting maybe for your design community to think about

[00:18:40] for teens to retain some play

[00:18:45] and kind of carry that habit. Or appreciation

[00:18:50] through to adulthood because

[00:18:55] this, the teen period is, well, it's stressful these

[00:19:00] days.

[00:19:01] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah. And it's hard and it's kind of like accelerated launch into adulthood

[00:19:05] and you kind of, I, I think teens kind of feel a sharp, sharp

[00:19:10] transition from child to,

[00:19:12] Gerry Scullion: yeah. Away from the fact that most people.

[00:19:15] Especially if they've got kids at the moment, and I hate to make that disclaimer, but

[00:19:20] the world is definitely a, a lot more of a stressful place with both

[00:19:25] parents most likely working these days to survive.

[00:19:28] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You know, we,

[00:19:30] we all go through that. Ourselves, ourselves, even in my own world. But, um,

[00:19:35] finding space for it is, is one thing. But the bit that you mentioned there about longevity

[00:19:40] is, you know, there's, I think there's lots of research there to back that up, like in terms of

[00:19:45] that, that release. Um, one of the questions I wanna ask you

[00:19:50] was.

[00:19:50] Gerry Scullion: Do you feel that play is different if it involves

[00:19:55] exercise or does it involve, um, like is

[00:20:00] monopoly the same as, and I use Monopoly just as an example, as a board game

[00:20:05] versus me doing laser tag, I. Is there a difference, um, with, with the

[00:20:10] kind of type of play and also who you play with? Because like I was playing with kids

[00:20:15] there, if I was playing with my, not that I have a boss, but if I was playing with everyone who is a peer and if I was

[00:20:20] working in a business, you kind of almost have to mask some of your, your childlike

[00:20:25] behaviors.

[00:20:25] Gerry Scullion: So get

[00:20:30]

[00:20:32] Jaclyn Suzuki: what you get out.

[00:20:35] And there are benefits of physical activity with play

[00:20:40] for sure. Um, but I think what's interesting is that everyone

[00:20:45] seeks out kind of different qualities of play and

[00:20:50] for different reasons. And what we found in this research was that there

[00:20:55] are six play personalities, archetypes.

[00:21:00]

[00:21:05]

[00:21:05] Jaclyn Suzuki: Do you know what those are? Yeah. Those was really interesting. We have,

[00:21:10] um, skill seekers who mm-hmm. Are more about

[00:21:15] challenge, um, competition and, uh, self-improvement.

[00:21:20] And then we have curiosity cultivators who, I've got someone

[00:21:25] cards here. Yeah, they has to be cultivators.

[00:21:27] Gerry Scullion: Actually have a set of cards as well.

[00:21:28] Gerry Scullion: The Mattel at the top. Yeah, we

[00:21:29] Jaclyn Suzuki: made a

[00:21:30] set of cards.

[00:21:30] Gerry Scullion: Well, motto. Did the cards, did they

[00:21:32] Jaclyn Suzuki: motto, did the cards, yeah.

[00:21:34] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:34] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:21:35] Um, so this, this is part of, and I can talk about this later, but, um,

[00:21:40] part of activating insights research is like gamifying the deliverables and, and letting

[00:21:45] teams play with.

[00:21:50]

[00:21:50] Jaclyn Suzuki: Okay, so what was interesting is you think, oh, um, playing for growth, you know,

[00:21:55] those are the, the folks who like to gain knowledge through play. But there's actually two different types, the skill

[00:22:00] seekers, which are more of that, um, self improvement type of.

[00:22:05] Um, and so they probably like the strategy games like you're talking about with,

[00:22:10] um, maybe chess or things like that and really thrive on some of

[00:22:15] that, the conversation and the, the strategic angles there.

[00:22:18] Jaclyn Suzuki: Uh, the curiosity

[00:22:20] cultivators though are another mindset towards growth that is more intuitive

[00:22:25] and more of exploratory and wanting to be, yeah. Kind of able to discover

[00:22:30] things on their own, and it's more about knowledge about the world around them versus knowledge of their

[00:22:35] self. Um, then there are

[00:22:40] the creative, um, the colorful

[00:22:45] creators, which are, uh, don't assume all the design community is in that bucket,

[00:22:50] but maybe the most familiar to us as designers.

[00:22:52] Jaclyn Suzuki: Uh. Creative

[00:22:55] explorers. Yeah. Um, and then there are two that fall

[00:23:00] in kind of social play. One is the social sparklers, right. All sparkly here.

[00:23:05] And they, you know, you could think extrovert,

[00:23:10] um, meeting for a big volleyball game or pickleball game.

[00:23:15] Um, really thriving on group competition. Yeah, the social

[00:23:20] banter part of things and, and the experience and the

[00:23:25] environment.

[00:23:25] Jaclyn Suzuki: Maybe more event based, but on the other side of the social

[00:23:30] play, you have memory makers. Okay? And the memory makers are.

[00:23:35] Folks that play for wellbeing and connection and the way they see wellbeing

[00:23:40] is through the lens of social health. Yeah. And community and memory

[00:23:45] making and supporting one another. And so, um, rituals around play like

[00:23:50] family game night would be really important for them.

[00:23:53] Gerry Scullion: So that's kind of like, uh, and

[00:23:55] I'm gonna pigeonhole, uh, bridge night for, you know,

[00:24:00] people who are in, um, more mature stages of life. Be it's probably way. It might

[00:24:05] be. Yeah. Yeah. So important to, to, to that life stage.

[00:24:09] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:24:10] Yes. And we actually talked to an 8-year-old girl, Emerson in LA who,

[00:24:15] um, was also a memory maker.

[00:24:18] Jaclyn Suzuki: Mm-hmm. Saw

[00:24:20] social sparkler and she, you know, she said her play, the reason she

[00:24:25] plays is all about friendship and kindness. And she would FaceTime her

[00:24:30] friends to play Barbie with them. And it was all about kind of the relationship she had with her friend,

[00:24:35] but also the Barbies had with each other. And so it was like a, a way to strengthen relationships.

[00:24:40]

[00:24:40] Gerry Scullion: So. How did digital gaming

[00:24:45] enter the conversation in this 'cause? Mattel typically, from my

[00:24:50] perspective of being 21 years old, um, you know, when I was growing up in the

[00:24:55] eighties, you know, Mattel were doing action men and all of these

[00:25:00] different, um. Different toys if you want. Um, but I guess

[00:25:05] it's probably shifted, like obviously I, I haven't stayed across mattel's, full catalog of

[00:25:10] toys.

[00:25:10] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, right.

[00:25:11] Jaclyn Suzuki: It's big, it's massive. Um, yeah. What? Yeah.

[00:25:15] Mattel

[00:25:15] Gerry Scullion: Digital in there.

[00:25:16] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah. Mattel's got a lot of digital gaming in their

[00:25:20] portfolio. They're constantly working on the future technologies

[00:25:25] and experiences. Um, but we come up.

[00:25:30] We didn't specifically, you know, recruit for digital or,

[00:25:35] or make it our sole focus.

[00:25:36] Jaclyn Suzuki: So I think, I think that would be an interesting project on and

[00:25:40] of itself. It did come up. Um, I'm, I'm thinking about

[00:25:45] Charles, a 11-year-old we met with who, who liked to, to

[00:25:50] game and online chatting with his friends while he was gaming and that

[00:25:55] really gave him a sense of community. But also he was one of those skill

[00:26:00] seekers who's into the challenge, mm-hmm.

[00:26:02] Jaclyn Suzuki: Of gaming. And so being able to kind of banter

[00:26:05] about the challenging aspects and the achievements that each other had was really

[00:26:10] important to him. He also designed video games himself, and he really liked

[00:26:15] archetype, you know, architecting those experiences, thinking

[00:26:20] about the strategy behind the game he was creating.

[00:26:22] Jaclyn Suzuki: So we saw a lot of

[00:26:25] creation in the digital space. I think 50% of the

[00:26:30] folks we hold consider creating with

[00:26:35] AI a form of play. Right.

[00:26:38] Gerry Scullion: Really,

[00:26:39] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:26:40] I guess I just, a form of play, right?

[00:26:43] Gerry Scullion: I guess I do too. Maybe

[00:26:45] I hadn't even considered it. Like, I guess there's, there's micro moments I guess in, in

[00:26:50] everyone's day. And it's kind of sad that that could be my, my,

[00:26:55] my introduction of play in my life.

[00:26:57] Gerry Scullion: You know, it's, it's interesting to see

[00:27:00] Mattel of, of, obviously, I suppose any toy company you're gonna be looking at digital. But was there any

[00:27:05] difference between the, the quality of

[00:27:10] the, the benefits from digital to physical? I'd love to

[00:27:15] understand that a little bit more. 'cause like parents here. I'm sure I'm not alone in

[00:27:20] this, but they'll probably be like, you know, get off that screen, go in and play with your, uh,

[00:27:25] you know, whatever, whatever toys you want, like in the, in the playroom.

[00:27:27] Gerry Scullion: And we have a playroom at our next, we're lucky enough.

[00:27:30] What's, what's it like, did you, did you get to hear any of that kind of

[00:27:34] Jaclyn Suzuki: perspective?

[00:27:35] Yeah. Um, well,

[00:27:40] digital gaming is happening younger and younger, so digital gaming

[00:27:45] is, um. The most common

[00:27:50] play activity starting at age six,

[00:27:53] Gerry Scullion: right?

[00:27:53] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, to

[00:27:55] 60 and then 16 and above.

[00:27:56] Jaclyn Suzuki: It, it shifts, it downgrades and, but, um,

[00:28:00] it is a really common mode of play, right? Uh, I think

[00:28:05] between six and 13

[00:28:10] parents are really concerned about it. And so

[00:28:15] it's a tension. On the one hand, we heard benefits of the socializing and the community.

[00:28:20] Yeah. And the self-expression and identity Sure. Part of it.

[00:28:23] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, playing with

[00:28:25] avatars, you know, exploring expression, um, and on the other hand,

[00:28:30] yeah, it's, um, you know, the offscreen in

[00:28:35] real life play experiences

[00:28:40] utilizing your physical senses. Um, have really big

[00:28:45] benefits and really critical to, to health and social health. So

[00:28:50] I, I personally push that more so with my kids.

[00:28:53] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, we're pretty, you

[00:28:55] know, we got them a CD player, so they would stay off of phones for a few more

[00:29:00] years.

[00:29:00] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. How have your kids. Jacqueline eight

[00:29:03] Jaclyn Suzuki: and 11.

[00:29:04] Gerry Scullion: Eight and 11. So not,

[00:29:05] not a bazillion miles away from mine. Mine are nine and six. Oh

[00:29:08] Jaclyn Suzuki: yeah. Um,

[00:29:09] Gerry Scullion: so we're

[00:29:10] that same, same stage as well at the moment.

[00:29:14] Gerry Scullion: There's

[00:29:15] probably a lot to talk about, but the, the, the piece that I'm hearing, there's a correlation between a

[00:29:20] conversation I had, um, with professor, um,

[00:29:25] Sonya Livingston, who's from the, the London School of Economics. Yeah. If you have not listened to that

[00:29:30] episode, I cannot remember the other guest who was on that, that show as well.

[00:29:33] Gerry Scullion: Forgive me if you're.

[00:29:35] It's about a year old and we, we spoke about play and the

[00:29:40] mechanisms of play. Oh, great. And the advice, the advice that they gave to, um,

[00:29:45] kind of the British government as regards, um, mandates and so

[00:29:50] forth. But yeah, one of the pieces that we spoke about in that piece around the digitization of

[00:29:55] games and play.

[00:29:56] Gerry Scullion: Was the closed network playing and

[00:30:00] systems like the BBC ecosystem and even Minecraft were

[00:30:05] generally outperformed other kind of gaming platforms that were more closed and,

[00:30:10] and not open-ended. Was there something like in, in the

[00:30:15] research that one spoke to that,

[00:30:20] and generally speaking, if you are.

[00:30:25] What parameters should they be put around that

[00:30:28] Jaclyn Suzuki: Mm.

[00:30:29] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:30:30] Play?

[00:30:30] Gerry Scullion: Because if play is the goal Yeah. If you want, so to get sense of play is, is it better to use

[00:30:35] digital as the only play versus none at all?

[00:30:39] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:30:40] Mm. That is a hard position to be in. I hope

[00:30:45] not too many people are in that position. But I guess

[00:30:48] Gerry Scullion: just asking you yourself, Jacqueline.

[00:30:50] Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:30:53] Jaclyn Suzuki: That's a great question. I mean,

[00:30:55] unfortunately this program didn't I.

[00:31:00]

[00:31:02] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um,

[00:31:03] Gerry Scullion: that's okay if we, if we didn't go

[00:31:05] into it, it's, yeah. I saw a photograph recently that, um,

[00:31:10] probably other, other people might have seen it as well on Instagram of the play zone in

[00:31:15] a McDonald's where it used to be soft play and bowls and all that kinda stuff. And now there

[00:31:20] was three screens from one child on the screen.

[00:31:25]

[00:31:25] Gerry Scullion: Looking out there at the moment. Moment is, is there anything that you can see that

[00:31:30] kind of correlates between children and playing and happiness? Is that

[00:31:35] something that you can see? Um, if people allow their children to play online,

[00:31:40] is there a direct correlation between that child's happiness if they're only playing

[00:31:45] online?

[00:31:46] Jaclyn Suzuki: That's a good question. Yeah. The answer to.

[00:31:50]

[00:31:55]

[00:31:56] Jaclyn Suzuki: I would guess no, I would guess you

[00:32:00] would need a, a mix and that would be the healthiest. Um, yeah. Yeah. And I

[00:32:05] think, yeah, I think, um, especially for the physical

[00:32:10] activity part and the, the social development part. Yeah. But.

[00:32:15]

[00:32:16] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. So let, let's go back to research actually, yourself. Yeah.

[00:32:20] Um, so you mentioned you went to China.

[00:32:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And then you went to Finland and you went

[00:32:25] to, um, Los Angeles. So what, what was the big, or, or was

[00:32:30] there any shifts that you noticeably saw between the three different territories? Can you talk to them?

[00:32:35]

[00:32:35] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah, great question. Um, we were, I would

[00:32:40] say to start off, we.

[00:32:45] Of surprised by how overwhelmingly

[00:32:50] similar folks' perspective about play was across the globe.

[00:32:53] Jaclyn Suzuki: And so across those

[00:32:55] three countries and the the other four, the seven total that we learned from,

[00:33:00] um, in the study. Wow. Like people really were

[00:33:05] seeing similar values in play. These, you know, these four big

[00:33:10] play motivations came out across the, these play personalities exist

[00:33:15] across the globe, um, across ages and genders.

[00:33:19] Jaclyn Suzuki: They're kind

[00:33:20] of universal psychographics. Um, but there, yeah, there were some

[00:33:25] differences for sure in, in culture and kind of the, even the

[00:33:30] history of play. Um, I would say in China.

[00:33:35] You know, just on average a family home is, is a lot smaller

[00:33:40] than in the states. And so parents were really creative about

[00:33:45] the environments for play and, um, where to

[00:33:50] store things, how to create, you know, playful spaces in the home.

[00:33:55]

[00:33:55] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, we saw a mother install a giant

[00:34:00] chalkboard in the. 3-year-old son could kind of, the

[00:34:05] way she put it was, I want him to be able to draw like kind of

[00:34:10] unbound from a, you know, a paper, the edges of a paper I want, I want his play

[00:34:15] to be kind of this boundless free Yeah. Type of time,

[00:34:20] which was just so beautiful because she was talking about it and she was in a very small apartment.

[00:34:25]

[00:34:25] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, so, so that was a physical thing. Um,

[00:34:30] I, I'd say a mentality. We saw in China were

[00:34:35] with the pre-teens. The parents were, were really protective of screen time and,

[00:34:40] um, there were really strict limits on tablet usage and only, you know,

[00:34:45] after everything else had been accomplished. Um, so this amazing

[00:34:50] 11-year-old we spoke with, um, in China, played piano

[00:34:55] and really enjoyed.

[00:34:56] Jaclyn Suzuki: Piano and basketball as big forms of play, and then

[00:35:00] also digital gaming. And so kind of an example where it felt well-rounded

[00:35:05] for him. And I think part of that was because there were some limits on the gaming perhaps.

[00:35:10]

[00:35:10] Gerry Scullion: Was there one of those three cultures that encouraged play

[00:35:15] throughout the full life, or was there, was there any correlation between

[00:35:20] Finland's um, selection as being the happiest country in the world?

[00:35:23] Gerry Scullion: What are the learnings? Yeah.

[00:35:25]

[00:35:25] Jaclyn Suzuki: The team was very, um, interested in Finland

[00:35:30] because it wasn't a, a outwardly

[00:35:35] exuberant expression of play and joy. It's a little bit more reserved and,

[00:35:40] uh, as they talked to families, it, they kind of

[00:35:45] came to understand that it's, it's just a core value. Um,

[00:35:50] yeah, play, of course. Of course, just part of life, you know, that's, that's what we

[00:35:55] do.

[00:35:55] Jaclyn Suzuki: It's, it's the right thing to do. It's a healthy thing to do. And, uh, it was just so

[00:36:00] integrated. So I'd say that country we saw where it was just really integrated,

[00:36:05] um, especially in childhood, it was very protected for children. Um.

[00:36:10] And I think, and and adults seem to have a healthy relationship with play

[00:36:15] as well.

[00:36:16] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, Americans I think were more, a little more exuberant

[00:36:20] and maybe active in their play. There was a lot of, a lot of sports, a lot of outdoors.

[00:36:25] I was gonna talk about this before when you were talking about the qualities of play is the

[00:36:30] senses came up a lot and play experiences. Stimulate the

[00:36:35] senses and the outdoor hiking.

[00:36:38] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, even just taking your

[00:36:40] game, your board game in the outdoors. Okay. And stimulating the

[00:36:45] senses a little bit. And so we talk, you know, we talk to Marcella about toys that

[00:36:50] are more sensorial and how, what does that mean?

[00:36:52] Gerry Scullion: Um, yeah. Was there, um.

[00:36:55] And again, people, I encourage you to go look for this. We might be able to put a

[00:37:00] link to the Yeah.

[00:37:01] Gerry Scullion: Report in, in the show notes. Yeah. Great. One of the things that

[00:37:05] I've noticed with children and I, and I've run summer camps and stuff with, with kids before and I've

[00:37:10] researched, but games that tend to have a winner at the end of it at certain

[00:37:15] age groups where there's a competition element to it, um, tend to get

[00:37:20] a lot more emotional reactions.

[00:37:21] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:25]

[00:37:25] Gerry Scullion: Beating so is

[00:37:30] for.

[00:37:35]

[00:37:37] Gerry Scullion: Streak. Um, like even with

[00:37:40] Snakes and Ladders, a very common game that we play in our house.

[00:37:45] There's a winner. Yeah. And my boy hates to lose, so I'm like, oh

[00:37:50] yeah. Like, you know, that wasn't a six. That was a one. Oh no, I'm down the, I'm down the ladder again.

[00:37:55] Like talk to around that type of play.

[00:38:00]

[00:38:05]

[00:38:05] Jaclyn Suzuki: I love that. That's a good call out. Um, I think

[00:38:10] games used to be more about winning, and now

[00:38:15] if we look at the, the framework and the,

[00:38:18] Gerry Scullion: the

[00:38:18] Jaclyn Suzuki: play personalities, you

[00:38:20] can see there are a couple play personalities that really, really do love that and seek that

[00:38:24] Gerry Scullion: out. Yeah,

[00:38:25]

[00:38:25] Jaclyn Suzuki: the, to.

[00:38:30]

[00:38:31] Jaclyn Suzuki: But there's so much more. And so we're starting to see the rise of like

[00:38:35] cooperative games, collaborative games. Um,

[00:38:40] you know, when my kids were a little younger there, there were more of these emotional

[00:38:45] intelligence, social intelligence games where we were just. Talking about

[00:38:50] feelings in a, you know, and, and going through friendship

[00:38:55] scenarios and helping, helping them learn in a fun, playful way about

[00:39:00] that with no, no winner there.

[00:39:02] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, I think some of those creative, you

[00:39:05] know, building games where we're building things together, world building

[00:39:10] is, it's another, a good example of that.

[00:39:13] Gerry Scullion: It's funny. It's funny that you

[00:39:15] mentioned world building games because that's what my boy Sam wanted

[00:39:20] for his sixth birthday. He's been Minecraft, you know, kind of mad

[00:39:25] without ever having played it.

[00:39:27] Gerry Scullion: Um, so I, I spent the $40 and

[00:39:30] I got it. I installed it and I've another Mac downstairs.

[00:39:35] I'm ashamed to say I, I, I can't really figure this one out. Um,

[00:39:40] I've actually hired a fifth class person who's probably about 10 or 11. He's a friend, a

[00:39:45] friend, friend of the family actually, and he's coming over next week to do, uh,

[00:39:50] an hour session with me and Amazing.

[00:39:52] Gerry Scullion: That's a great idea. And I'm gonna pay him, like

[00:39:55] I said, look, I'll pay you 10

[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Gerry Scullion: so. I look at it and I'm like, I actually dunno what I'm meant to be doing here.

[00:40:05] Like there's disconnect is real between some. Yeah.

[00:40:10] Like I'm trying to make the leap and I'm like, I actually dunno what I'm meant be doing here, Sam. I'm, I'm

[00:40:15] flying, uh, um, I'm digging. Um, is that what you're meant to do?

[00:40:20] Who are like.

[00:40:25]

[00:40:28] Gerry Scullion: You know, is there anything in the, in the

[00:40:30] report that really allows us to reenter the, the play

[00:40:35] world, um, safely without looking like, um, you know, an

[00:40:40] absolute plum like I do at times?

[00:40:41] Jaclyn Suzuki: Oh my gosh. I love that. Um, well, good for you for

[00:40:45] exploring and, and getting, getting tutoring too.

[00:40:50] Yeah, the report is full of new ideas to play.

[00:40:54] Jaclyn Suzuki: I think that

[00:40:55] is a big, um, outcome. Hmm. And that's for

[00:41:00] all of us, for sure. I think adults probably need it too. Need the ideas.

[00:41:05] Um, yeah. One of the things I liked about this project is it resulted in a

[00:41:10] toolkit like I was telling you about the cards for. For the Mattel

[00:41:15] teams and kind of originally designed for the design teams Yeah.

[00:41:19] Jaclyn Suzuki: To activate. But

[00:41:20] it's been used more broadly, almost like an employee onboarding tool, ah,

[00:41:25] to get folks into just the, the world of play, which is

[00:41:30] this know concept that Mattel stands for and champions. And so.

[00:41:35] So part of that is, uh, to get folks

[00:41:40] talking about why they play. And you know, this is one of the games in the toolkit is like, spin the

[00:41:45] wheel and explore a concept, you know,

[00:41:50] a type of play maybe you haven't before.

[00:41:51] Jaclyn Suzuki: So this was, um, this one we landed in play for

[00:41:55] connection. And part of play for connection is actually it's about connecting with people in

[00:42:00] the present, but also with. Memories in your past. So we landed on

[00:42:05] visit nostalgia and uh, the conversation prompt here

[00:42:10] is describe a scent that returns you to a happy childhood memory.

[00:42:15]

[00:42:15] Gerry Scullion: Oh, nice.

[00:42:16] Jaclyn Suzuki: Do

[00:42:17] Gerry Scullion: are

[00:42:20]

[00:42:22] Gerry Scullion: probably the smell of my mother baking bread. To be

[00:42:25] honest. It's the smell of bread. Like I always kind of like my mom used to soda bread. Yeah.

[00:42:30] What about you, Jacqueline?

[00:42:33] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah, that's a good one.

[00:42:35] Um, I, I might say grass, freshly cut grass. We

[00:42:40] just, your basic

[00:42:41] Gerry Scullion: cut grass just cut grass. Yeah.

[00:42:43] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah. We, we did a lot of like,

[00:42:45] tumbling in the yard.

[00:42:46] Jaclyn Suzuki: Um, a lot of grass stains on our clothes and as kids.

[00:42:50]

[00:42:50] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Yeah. That's another one as well. Like, you know that, that's pretty cool. Yeah.

[00:42:55] Jacqueline. It's, it's a, it's a fascinating area. Like we, we've had a couple of people on speaking

[00:43:00] about play over the last couple of years. Um, this sounds like it's a must read though,

[00:43:05] I have to say.

[00:43:05] Gerry Scullion: Um, I will find the link, or if you send me the link. Yeah, I'll send it

[00:43:10] to you. Description, the show notes. If you watch it on YouTube, it's gonna be below in the description. If you're on

[00:43:15] Spotify or Apple Podcast, podcasts gonna be in.

[00:43:20]

[00:43:24] Gerry Scullion: What's your

[00:43:25] website and what's the best way for people to reach out and, and stay in touch with? Do? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:43:30]

[00:43:30] Jaclyn Suzuki: Our website is look with motto

[00:43:34] Gerry Scullion: nice

[00:43:35]

[00:43:35] Jaclyn Suzuki: com and yeah, reach out on LinkedIn or um, through the

[00:43:40] website Jacqueline on my email's. jacqueline@lookwith.com. Happy to talk about

[00:43:45] approach to.

[00:43:49] Gerry Scullion:

[00:43:50] Just to show how small the world is. Okay. Um, yeah, I asked beforehand, I said, how did you,

[00:43:55] how did you hear about us? And they were like, well, my daughter,

[00:44:00] daughter, wasn't it?

[00:44:01] Jaclyn Suzuki: Yeah. Yes.

[00:44:02] Gerry Scullion: Daughter and Lucy Flores's daughter.

[00:44:05] Went to free school together. So there you go. I'm just saying a big shout out to Lucy

[00:44:10] Flores and indirectly to Rachel deas as well, who connected me to Lucy.

[00:44:13] Gerry Scullion: There we go.

[00:44:15] There you go. Just the show. Small. The world is, um, amongst all of us who listen

[00:44:20] and are on the show as well. But look, Jacqueline, I wrap every. Episode up on this is eight

[00:44:25] cd, but thanking their guests for coming on. Um, it is a bit more kind of daunting when we don't

[00:44:30] have a script or any of that kinda stuff.

[00:44:31] Gerry Scullion: All of these episodes are unscripted. We, we go live and we just,

[00:44:35] you know, let our curiosity follow us through the conversation, which to me always delivers

[00:44:40] the best results. Um, Jacqueline, thanks so much for your time. It has been Absolutely.

[00:44:44] Jaclyn Suzuki:

[00:44:45] Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

[00:44:46] Gerry Scullion: Anytime chat to

[00:44:50]

[00:44:55] you.

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