The Psychology of Not Belonging: A Conversation with Dr. Rami Kaminski

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of this eight CD. My name is Jerry Scion

[00:00:05] and I'm a human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland. Now, if

[00:00:10] you've ever walked through life and have ever, if you've ever felt like you don't really fit in, and maybe

[00:00:15] you experience the world a little bit differently or that you're constantly observing from the edges, this

[00:00:20] conversation might hit home in a powerful way.

[00:00:22] Gerry Scullion: Now, I'm joined by Dr. Rami Kaminsky, a

[00:00:25] psychiatrist and author of The Gift of Not Belonging and Founder of The Otherness

[00:00:30] Institute. Now, his work explores why some people simply cannot be shaped by

[00:00:35] group identity and why this difference isn't a flaw, but a genuine gift.

[00:00:40] Now, I was introduced to Rami's work by Rachel deas whilst we were

[00:00:45] away speaking at service design in gov.

[00:00:47] Gerry Scullion: And I bought the book instantly. I've

[00:00:50] never really felt attached to the terms introvert or extrovert. People get to meet me

[00:00:55] and they say, oh, he's quite extroverted. But believe it or not, I'm neither. I

[00:01:00] now basically call myself an introvert, something that lives in the other, and I wanted to share this new

[00:01:05] way of thinking that Ramey has pioneered.

[00:01:08] Gerry Scullion: But in this episode, you'll learn why some

[00:01:10] of us are wired as non belongers and how otherness can become

[00:01:15] emotional freedom instead of pain, and why labels can help us feel seen.

[00:01:20] And the surprising truth between empathy and connection and what happens when we stop trying to fit into

[00:01:25] systems that were never really built for us.

[00:01:28] Gerry Scullion: This conversation opens up parts of

[00:01:30] myself I'd never really been truly able to articulate, and I hope it does the same

[00:01:35] for you. If you enjoy this episode, please do subscribe and if you can go

[00:01:40] along to the links in the show notes, take that survey, you know, it might

[00:01:45] actually, uh, provide some help and clarity and understanding how you see the world.

[00:01:49] Gerry Scullion: I found it to be

[00:01:50] very, very interesting. The book was fantastic. I read it and I felt like I was

[00:01:55] being seen for the first time in a very, very long time. And I'll put a link to that as well in the show

[00:02:00] notes. I know you're gonna enjoy it. Let's jump straight in.

[00:02:05]

[00:02:10]

[00:02:12] Gerry Scullion: Rammy. I'm, I'm delighted to, uh,

[00:02:15] to finally get to speak with you. I bought this book with my own money. Okay.

[00:02:20] Right. I, I heard about this. I know people say like, you got these books sent for free. I

[00:02:25] bought this one myself. 'cause my good friend Rachel deas, who is a, uh,

[00:02:30] an incredible designer and a social worker based in Chicago, we were hanging out together.

[00:02:34] Gerry Scullion: We were doing a

[00:02:35] conference in, uh, Edinburgh about four weeks ago called Service Design and Government.

[00:02:40] And we had a conversation about introvert and extrovert. And,

[00:02:45] uh, she had seen something about the word introvert that,

[00:02:50] uh, led me to purchasing this book. She sent me all the details of The Otherness Institute.

[00:02:55]

[00:02:55] Gerry Scullion: So we're gonna come to all of that now in a few minutes, but maybe we'll start off, tell us

[00:03:00] a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

[00:03:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Well, so

[00:03:05] I, uh, am in New York City. Um, I am a psychiatrist.

[00:03:10] And I have a very long

[00:03:15] career, uh, yeah. Despite my youthful look. Um, I

[00:03:19] Gerry Scullion: know,

[00:03:20]

[00:03:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: but, uh, like

[00:03:20] Gerry Scullion: me,

[00:03:23] Dr Rami Kaminski: I look like twins, but

[00:03:25] sorry, I don't mean to, uh, insult you.

[00:03:28] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, but in any

[00:03:30] event, um, and, you know, I've been working, I started in, uh,

[00:03:35] Mount Sinai and I was working there for many years, and then I became the

[00:03:40] medical director of the agency that, uh, controls all the

[00:03:45] psychiatric or mental health in New York State. Um,

[00:03:50] and then later on, and I was also a professor of, um,

[00:03:55] psychiatry at Columbia University.

[00:03:58] Dr Rami Kaminski: And

[00:04:00] basically that's, that's where I am. So I have, um.

[00:04:05] You know, my private practice where I see patients, I work in a hospital, I

[00:04:10] teach.

[00:04:10] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:04:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: Usual. Nothing special.

[00:04:13] Gerry Scullion: Lovely. And

[00:04:15] one of the things that, as I said, brought us together is this book, um, the Gift of Not

[00:04:20] Belonging. Um, and when I emailed you saying, Hey, listen, look, this book

[00:04:25] feels like it was written for me.

[00:04:26] Gerry Scullion: Um, and you were like, okay, interesting. Let's, let's talk

[00:04:30] about this. But where did that idea of otherness come from? Can you walk

[00:04:35] me through where the interest interest began and what made you first

[00:04:40] notice this pattern in people? Yeah.

[00:04:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: Well, you know, the story is so good

[00:04:45] that, uh, it's almost like made up, but that is true.

[00:04:48] Dr Rami Kaminski: So I am

[00:04:50] an introvert, you know, so I grew up, um,

[00:04:55] and usually, I mean, the first 10 years of life was just regular.

[00:05:00] And then the second year, uh, second decade, you know, adolescent

[00:05:05] was very, very difficult. Um, and you know, in a way I always think that had they

[00:05:10] been, let's say, had there been something wrong, uh, pardon be

[00:05:15] kind wrong, and I would've been, you know, rejected or

[00:05:20] outcast, I probably would not have under, you know, I just think, you

[00:05:25] know, nobody likes me and that's okay.

[00:05:27] Dr Rami Kaminski: What can I do? But

[00:05:30] I was very popular, you know, I was an in person.

[00:05:35] I was, I liked, I liked school and yet I always felt

[00:05:40] that I am an outsider. And that discrepancy

[00:05:45] was for me, the number one psychological

[00:05:50] problem in my life. And so I think as I

[00:05:55] always like to joke, had they been a dermatologist. I would've never thought

[00:06:00] about it at all.

[00:06:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: I would just think that I'm weird and that is my lot in

[00:06:05] life and I should, so I don't feel like I'm belonging to anything, uh, other than,

[00:06:10] but then I started seeing people in my practice

[00:06:15] that had curiously similar problems,

[00:06:20] um, to what I had, and I started thinking

[00:06:25] about it in a very different way. You know, it's not like only me, but maybe there is something

[00:06:30] here.

[00:06:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: I remember thinking this way and so I started

[00:06:35] looking into it, um, and next patient started

[00:06:40] thinking about it more and so forth. And, you know,

[00:06:45] then 40 years later, you know, I, um,

[00:06:50] felt that, you know, I have something to say and I want to say it,

[00:06:55] and I said it. Um, I mean, introvert,

[00:07:00] the word itself was chosen in the last minute

[00:07:05] because I used to think about it as otherness, you know, but otherness

[00:07:10] people sounded so awkward.

[00:07:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah, so, so I, you know,

[00:07:15] I was with some friends, we kicked around some names, and I liked

[00:07:20] Bert very much because it does sound like vert like Yung

[00:07:25] and B um, it's really does mean a person that

[00:07:30] faces elsewhere. You know, this is the essence of my life. You,

[00:07:35] I'm never facing the group.

[00:07:38] Gerry Scullion: Uh, one of the things, like

[00:07:40] I, I see a psychologist or a, a psychotherapist actually every month, and

[00:07:45] I spoke about your work, uh, with them there a number of times over the last couple of weeks.

[00:07:50]

[00:07:50] Gerry Scullion: And their question to me, what is it about the fact that. This excites you

[00:07:55] like that, the label introvert. Um, what, why

[00:08:00] does it speak to me and trying to understand that, why that sits behind it?

[00:08:05] Um, what are your thoughts on having another label for people to,

[00:08:10] uh, apply to themselves? Is that something that you're aware that,

[00:08:15] you know, it gives positives and negatives?

[00:08:18] Gerry Scullion: Is that something you've considered?

[00:08:20]

[00:08:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: Of course. I mean, you know, I worked most of my life, by the way, I am, um,

[00:08:25] a schizophrenia expert. Okay. So I'm very used to

[00:08:30] working with people, uh, that are outcast and

[00:08:35] labeled, you know, and stigmatized. So

[00:08:40] curiously, most of my advocacy work has been against stigma and labeling

[00:08:45] and so,

[00:08:45] Gerry Scullion: Hmm.

[00:08:46] Dr Rami Kaminski: Now, you know.

[00:08:50] Of the things, I think that being an introvert is helpful, and you may know it from your

[00:08:55] own experience, is that the fact that people say, let's say

[00:09:00] labeled bed doesn't face me. You know, people, a

[00:09:05] lot of things, you know, there's this kind of intellectual laziness

[00:09:10] that after a while you get an idea.

[00:09:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Let's say labeling is bad, then everybody says

[00:09:15] labeling is bad. And then you realize labeling is bad. But the, the question is, what

[00:09:20] does it replace? Give

[00:09:21] Gerry Scullion: you, Hmm.

[00:09:22] Dr Rami Kaminski: What does it replace, you know, because I

[00:09:25] used to think of myself, I'm saying it lovingly, but you

[00:09:30] know, it's weird. You know, I, I, I did have a label.

[00:09:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's not like I, I

[00:09:35] didn't have a label, but I just didn't know what I was, I mean, like, um, why am I so weird?

[00:09:40] Um, what, what, what is it that makes simple things?

[00:09:45] Uh, very difficult for me. Something that seemingly everyone else

[00:09:50] enjoys and I don't, and why is it? And so forth. And so, you know, the

[00:09:55] label is maybe not good for the rest of the world.

[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, oh, label you want label, but, but it's very good

[00:10:05] for extroverts, you know? Yeah. Because, and that is my answer on, on a regular

[00:10:10] basis. You know, I, I want to say this, you know, Gary in a, in a, in a general way,

[00:10:15] and, you know, it's very interesting because some people say to me, you

[00:10:20] know, it's very strange, you know, it seems like you just thought about it,

[00:10:25] observed it, and wrote about it.

[00:10:26] Dr Rami Kaminski: Mm-hmm. The research was the,

[00:10:30] you know, resources, the, uh, literature and

[00:10:35] Absolutely. And I always say, you know, I am the person that writes about.

[00:10:40] No need for communal consensus. And you tell me that I should have

[00:10:45] waited first for the consensus and then allow myself to write about it. I just

[00:10:50] did it the other way around, you know?

[00:10:51] Dr Rami Kaminski: And, um, and the book,

[00:10:55] the truth of the matter is the book is really written forverts. Yeah.

[00:11:00] So I was hoping, and this is

[00:11:05] what I see, and you are a very good example for that, that if you're

[00:11:10] an or someone that knows orts, you would

[00:11:15] immediately recognize yourself in it. I didn't want to write a

[00:11:20] self-help book.

[00:11:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: I didn't want to write 12 steps to recognize your or

[00:11:25] version, or I wanted to write a book that if you are an author and you read it,

[00:11:30] it'll be so poignant. And so.

[00:11:35] Real to you. You never have to talk to me. I mean, you talk to me, but you

[00:11:40] know, you don't have to call me. You don't have to see, you know, you just sit there and say, this

[00:11:45] is me.

[00:11:45] Dr Rami Kaminski: And then you start thinking about it. I should tell you that actually one of them was from

[00:11:50] Ireland. I got, I get a lot of letters all the time

[00:11:55] from people. Wow. You know, convey, I would say by now I have over, uh,

[00:12:00] 1500 letters. Wow. And more than 30,000

[00:12:05] registrants in our, you know, otherness Institute. So it must have hit some sort of,

[00:12:10]

[00:12:10] Gerry Scullion: some sort of nerve.

[00:12:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: Nerve, yeah.

[00:12:12] Gerry Scullion: Can I tell you what my response

[00:12:15] was to, um, my psychotherapist when they said, what, what does it give me? It gave

[00:12:20] me, um, the sense of being seen. Was my response like for a

[00:12:25] long time, like you just said, like I echoed a lot of the same things. I was like, you know, people would

[00:12:30] refer to some of my sort of responses to social situations as being

[00:12:35] abnormal or weird or whatever word you want to use it.

[00:12:39] Gerry Scullion:

[00:12:40] Um, so I felt seen and that's a really powerful sentiment to,

[00:12:45] to carry when you've lived your entire life of feeling like you don't belong.

[00:12:50] But the characteristics that you can list in the book, I just wanna give our

[00:12:55] listeners a little bit of an overview. Um, and if it's okay, just gimme a few minutes to read

[00:13:00] some of these things out.

[00:13:00] Gerry Scullion: Like a deep individuality, a strong internal compass and sense of self

[00:13:05] that doesn't really conform to group norms. A heightened self-awareness,

[00:13:10] a constant meta consciousness, a feeling of observing oneself in relation to

[00:13:15] others. This often leads to overthinking and social interactions and sensing subtle

[00:13:20] shifts in to, or behavior.

[00:13:22] Gerry Scullion: Number three, em, uh, empath

[00:13:25] empathic sensitivity and acute ability to read emotional atmospheres and

[00:13:30] perceive unspoken tensions. The sensitivity can both be a gift for

[00:13:35] connection and insight and source of exhaustion. Definitely moral and

[00:13:40] existential depth. Uh, tendency to question why behind systems authority and convention.

[00:13:45]

[00:13:45] Gerry Scullion: People high in otherness often pursue meaning, fairness, and authenticity

[00:13:50] over approval or success. Five. Creative divergence

[00:13:55] thinking laterally and intuitively seeing patterns and possibilities. Others, miss

[00:14:00] Otherness often manifests as unconventional problem solving or

[00:14:05] original thought. Number six, alienation from norms feeling outta

[00:14:10] step with mainstream culture.

[00:14:11] Gerry Scullion: Whether it's values, energy, or priorities. This

[00:14:15] may create loneliness, misunderstood intentions or a sense of being

[00:14:20] misfit. But awake. Number seven, resistance to conformity. A

[00:14:25] quiet or sometimes fierce refusal to fit into expected roles or

[00:14:30] social masks. Conformity feels like self betrayal rather than safety.

[00:14:34] Gerry Scullion: Number eight,

[00:14:35] high emotional intensity. Experiences and emotions are felt vividly. Joy and

[00:14:40] pain are both amplified. This intensity can drive purpose, empathy, and

[00:14:45] artistry, but also burnout and withdrawal. Nine. Perceptual breath.

[00:14:50] Seeing complexity in human behavior, systems and relationships. Noticing what others

[00:14:55] overlook.

[00:14:55] Gerry Scullion: This often draws other minded people to feels like psychology, art,

[00:15:00] research, or design. Ding, ding, ding, ding. And number 10, search for

[00:15:05] belonging without assimilation. Longing to connect deeply while

[00:15:10] remaining fully oneself not diluted or fixed. When found,

[00:15:15] this form of belonging feels transcendent. They're the 10

[00:15:20] characteristics that were noted as I went through this book.

[00:15:23] Gerry Scullion: Um, a lot of them,

[00:15:25] like you've got a survey on your website, uh, Rammy that when it was

[00:15:30] sent to me, I, I can't remember my score. I think it was 2 32 over two 80.

[00:15:35] Um, and I was like, well, I'm gonna put a link to that. If you, if you're listening to this, there's a link to that

[00:15:40] in the, the show notes. Or if you're watching on YouTube, it'll be in the description.

[00:15:44] Gerry Scullion: And I

[00:15:45] know they do say at the very end of the survey, put your email in here and get an email sent back to you and you get your results.

[00:15:50] That is not spam. I did it and the details that came back to me

[00:15:55] were, uh, more elaborate and high value. So I encourage you to put your email

[00:16:00] address in there to get that PDF that's sent back to you.

[00:16:03] Gerry Scullion: Now going

[00:16:05] back to these pieces of those 10 characteristics, is there anything that you think that I might have

[00:16:10] missed out on, uh, Rammy in those 10 observations?

[00:16:15]

[00:16:15] Dr Rami Kaminski: No, I don't think you missed at all. I mean, you see, one of

[00:16:20] the things that I always try to explain and is that,

[00:16:25] you know, when you are an introvert, it, it's

[00:16:30] really a means

[00:16:35] not having a communal identity or a sense of belonging

[00:16:40] The way that cultural, uh, conditioning is, you know,

[00:16:45] imus in, in everyone.

[00:16:46] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, this didn't work for me. Um, now the

[00:16:50] rest of the traits have to do with this. This is the

[00:16:55] essential part, you know? Yeah. That you don't belong. You don't belong, and very strange, but you don't

[00:17:00] belong. And all the rest, including some of the psychological difficulties that can come up

[00:17:05] with it, have to do with the fact that you live.

[00:17:10]

[00:17:10] Dr Rami Kaminski: World of joiners and belongers and you are not. And so

[00:17:15] much so, you know, I had an interview the other day with, um,

[00:17:20] someone in Italy and she said to me, what would be if the whole world were,

[00:17:25] there was no community at all. And I said, you know, it's very interesting.

[00:17:30] Even I cannot think how it's gonna be. I mean, I am also so

[00:17:35] into the communal aspect of humanity, so to speak,

[00:17:40] that I, I really cannot fathom how the world would

[00:17:45] be if everyone, except for one thing, I must say, and maybe I'm wrong, but

[00:17:50] that's what I said to her, is I guess there wouldn't be any wars, you

[00:17:55] know?

[00:17:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: I dunno. I mean,

[00:17:56] Gerry Scullion: why do you think that?

[00:17:59] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[00:18:00] Because in order to, and that's a very good question. You see

[00:18:05] Communality. Is being not only extorted,

[00:18:10] but you know, at least seen as the only way to be or to succeed

[00:18:15] or to exist, um, is very nice and very

[00:18:20] important. I did not write a book against Communality at all,

[00:18:25] but there is the dark side, which is

[00:18:30] tribalism.

[00:18:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I think that without tribalism, it's going to be

[00:18:35] very hard to have a war. You know, for instance, I never see

[00:18:40] anyone as representative of anything to me. You,

[00:18:45] Gary, scholar, you and I am Rami. I mean, I am, I

[00:18:50] don't represent anything other than myself. And to me, you don't represent anything

[00:18:55] other than yourself.

[00:18:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so I.

[00:19:00] Happen to enjoy our conversation. And I think that we, it's

[00:19:05] true that, you know, we're probably similar in this way and, you know, it does give you a sense

[00:19:10] of not belonging, but connection.

[00:19:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:19:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: I think that if

[00:19:15] you really look at people as individuals, and I'm not trying to be touchy

[00:19:20] feely, you know, I really think that if, if you don't group people, which

[00:19:25] I don't, you cannot hate them, you know, or love them or anything.

[00:19:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know,

[00:19:30] for me, people, I would never look at the group and want to kill the,

[00:19:35] the group or think that they're inferior just because I don't see the group. So I think

[00:19:40] tribalism is the reason that we have wars. You know, we're taught

[00:19:45] that it's us and them. That's what, and so that is to

[00:19:50] me, the reason why if everyone was an introvert, um.

[00:19:55]

[00:19:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: Maybe people will kill each other, you know, or fight. I dunno. I'm

[00:20:00] not saying that I, I can't, but there wouldn't be a war, I mean, disorganized when

[00:20:05] you do the, you know, what is called, um, outsourcing your

[00:20:10] morals to the group, you know, I only,

[00:20:12] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:20:13] Dr Rami Kaminski: I only fulfill the

[00:20:15] command or whatever. So

[00:20:18] Gerry Scullion: it's interesting, like,

[00:20:20] um, when you're speaking about tribalism and our culture, uh, the

[00:20:25] acceptance of being different is something that I still see.

[00:20:29] Gerry Scullion: Culture,

[00:20:30] finding it difficult to accept. Um, what do you think

[00:20:35] is causing that for, you know, for people and for

[00:20:40] society? What is holding that back? Um, from the accepting of the other?

[00:20:45]

[00:20:47] Dr Rami Kaminski: That's a very good question. We could spend the next

[00:20:50] seven hours.

[00:20:51] Gerry Scullion: Uh, let's do it.

[00:20:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:20:54] Gerry Scullion: I don't care. Uh, 'cause I think that, as you

[00:20:55] said, like tribalism is, is one of the reasons, one of the many reasons for war.

[00:20:59] Gerry Scullion: But like, if we can learn

[00:21:00] to accept the other, um, and otherness as being part of that, uh,

[00:21:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: tell

[00:21:05] it really

[00:21:06] Gerry Scullion: good to get your perspective.

[00:21:07] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's very easy. You know, when I was, I

[00:21:10] spent some time in, uh, London, uh, in the

[00:21:15] eighties, uh, some, uh, training there.

[00:21:20] And on the underground there was a poster. I had it actually, I

[00:21:25] found it in, uh, in the poster shows a group of

[00:21:30] toddlers sitting in the diapers, very sweet ro

[00:21:35] uh, and you could see they're all ethnicities and there is caption.

[00:21:40]

[00:21:40] Dr Rami Kaminski: The head, which says The only place in England

[00:21:45] where there is no racism, and was deeply,

[00:21:50] deeply affected by it. And then I realized that this is my argument,

[00:21:55] by the way, which I really think it's going to be hard

[00:22:00] to neate the a, his fault. We're born with

[00:22:05] the attachment instinct.

[00:22:08] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:09] Dr Rami Kaminski: But

[00:22:10] we're not born with the understanding of belonging to anything.

[00:22:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, a

[00:22:15] group or other, there's no baby that is religious, nationalistic. Yeah.

[00:22:20] You know, a racist, they, you know, babies don't understand power

[00:22:25] status. And so we are all born non belongers.

[00:22:30] That's, that's the truth. I mean, we're not, yeah. And then with.

[00:22:35] The language and you know, become a toddler. We are being

[00:22:40] routed towards sociality.

[00:22:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you have to be sociable,

[00:22:45] stand, don't you know, don't barge, don't you know this is Timmy's not yours.

[00:22:50] And share, which is very important obviously 'cause you

[00:22:55] need to get along with the rest. And extroverts are very, very friendly and nice people. It's not like,

[00:23:00] you know, the two of us, I mean, I mean, nice guy.

[00:23:03] Dr Rami Kaminski: You a nice guy, it's obvious.

[00:23:05] So, but at some point it's

[00:23:10] about the age of four or five. You know, we start to learn

[00:23:15] that there is a group and we belong to

[00:23:20] this group. So there is what we call cultural conditioning. It's

[00:23:25] happened everywhere across the world. My children underwent, I did, you

[00:23:30] did everywhere.

[00:23:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so the cultural condition. Is

[00:23:35] not teaching the people, the children to belong per se. And

[00:23:40] let's argue that belonging is, you know, a, an instinct. I'm not sure it's true, but

[00:23:45] even if it, but you have to know what to belong. And that's where the problem starts.

[00:23:50] Because you know, your parents don't say, well Gary, you know, welcome to the world.

[00:23:55]

[00:23:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: Here are seven major religions, please choose one.

[00:24:00] Uh, here's, you know, countries that you can, no,

[00:24:05] you get their morals, their ideas, their group, their everything

[00:24:10] from them, you know?

[00:24:11] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:24:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: So you need to be taught to

[00:24:15] separate between people. You need to be taught that there are

[00:24:20] us and them, you know, it's not something you are born with.

[00:24:25]

[00:24:25] Dr Rami Kaminski: Because there's no way that a baby or a child would be able to

[00:24:30] live alone until a certain age without cultural conditioning. It's just possible.

[00:24:35] We all are subjected to it. Go ahead.

[00:24:39] Gerry Scullion: But don't we

[00:24:40] need each other, so like, this is the, the caveman we

[00:24:45] needed each other to provide food and shelter and all of those intrinsic

[00:24:50] things that are really important for survival if we're all happy to live on our own.

[00:24:55]

[00:24:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: Is

[00:24:56] Gerry Scullion: there,

[00:24:57] Dr Rami Kaminski: you see the, the, the thing about, you know,

[00:25:00] otherness is not about living on your own or being, uh,

[00:25:05] unattached or unaffiliated. Mm-hmm. It's about that. It's about the idea that

[00:25:10] you should share your identity with your group.

[00:25:15] That's what you're told. You know, you

[00:25:20] told you have to give up your own needs for the needs of the group, your group,

[00:25:25] okay?

[00:25:25] Gerry Scullion: Ah,

[00:25:26] Dr Rami Kaminski: and sooner or later you start having a sense of shared fate.

[00:25:30] You know, at the end of the book, I write about old age and death,

[00:25:35] you know, and the idea is that I think many

[00:25:40] people join the group because they feel a sense of shared faith and

[00:25:45] safety. I mean, I don't feel safety in the group, but I, I can understand it.

[00:25:49] Dr Rami Kaminski: The

[00:25:50] problem that when you really, really look at it, and you really strip it down

[00:25:55] to something that cannot be denied is you're born alone.

[00:26:00] You live alone, and you die alone. It's undeniable. Even if everyone

[00:26:05] around you loves you very much, they're not gonna die with you. They're going to you. And,

[00:26:10] and so the idea that the group is leaving you behind is very scary to

[00:26:15] people.

[00:26:15] Dr Rami Kaminski: No. But, but you asked, um, another

[00:26:20] question, which is, um, isn't communality important?

[00:26:25] And the truth is yes, it was very important when we were

[00:26:30] hunters, gatherers, and probably throughout years, but the communality was more

[00:26:35] people around you, your family, your, your, I mean, it was your

[00:26:40] group. Now we don't need it.

[00:26:43] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, I, I get my milk

[00:26:45] without milking the cows or, you know, annoying the milk. Yeah, no, I, I just,

[00:26:50] so we don't need this level of, and actually most of the belonging

[00:26:55] now, especially after 25 years old, is virtual. You know, you have kinds of

[00:27:00] groups that you can belong to and so on and so forth. We don't need it as much as we needed it at

[00:27:05] in the beginning.

[00:27:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:27:06] Dr Rami Kaminski: And certainly, again, I want to highlight it.

[00:27:10] It's not the fact that they want us to belong that. That's

[00:27:15] benign. It's what they want us to belong to. Yeah.

[00:27:19] Gerry Scullion: So

[00:27:20] now you call the book The Gift of Not Belonging.

[00:27:25] Okay. But I listed out 10 characteristics, um, one of which was

[00:27:30] belonging, I believe. Why did you call out

[00:27:35] Not belonging as the title of the book?

[00:27:38] Gerry Scullion: That's question number one. And then second

[00:27:40] two is, is kind of helping us unpack what it means to belong.

[00:27:45] So I'd love to understand why, why the book is called The Gift of Not Belonging,

[00:27:50] first of all,

[00:27:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: because you know, it's

[00:27:55] still true. As you said before, we think of

[00:28:00] belonging as something so essential

[00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Dr Rami Kaminski: To the human society, that the idea of not belonging

[00:28:10] is always seen as a.

[00:28:15] I mean, there are people who don't belong schizophrenic patients. There are people that have neuro

[00:28:20] neurological cognitive problems. People who are strange in quote unquote, in other

[00:28:25] words, sometimes it's just because of the skin of your, you know, the color of your skin, whatever is the, the

[00:28:30] reason people don't belong to groups.

[00:28:32] Dr Rami Kaminski: But usually it's not because they don't want to,

[00:28:35] it's because they, at some point, perhaps very early, were

[00:28:40] expelled from the group, uh, you know, extroverts or non

[00:28:45] belongers. Like me, I never, I never made the shift to

[00:28:50] belong to anything. I stayed the same way I was when I was four. You

[00:28:55] know, I wanted to belong, by the way, I did not have any philosophical ideas at the age of four.

[00:29:00]

[00:29:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: I very much wanted to belong. I did everything to belong. Uh, yeah,

[00:29:05] but I couldn't. And so there is a segment of the population that is my argument.

[00:29:10] They don't belong by. D of being able

[00:29:15] to be brainwashed by cultural conditioning.

[00:29:20]

[00:29:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: I can tell you, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts why we doing research on this, but

[00:29:25] the, the bottom line is that non belonging by

[00:29:30] design or by desire, just not belonging because you don't belong

[00:29:35] is considered suspect.

[00:29:36] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know?

[00:29:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:37] Dr Rami Kaminski: There's something strange about you

[00:29:40] not belong, even though you're nice and friendly and I'm, I mean, I live

[00:29:45] in a community. I'm not, you know, a strange loner, you know?

[00:29:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:50]

[00:29:50] Dr Rami Kaminski: But the idea that I'm not, I have no religion, I have no

[00:29:55] nationality. That's why I'm, you know, when you ask me about my background, it's very hard

[00:30:00] for me to talk about it because I can tell you about me.

[00:30:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: But the

[00:30:05] idea that I was like, I was born here and grew up there a mean list to me.

[00:30:10]

[00:30:10] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. I noticed that.

[00:30:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. By

[00:30:12] Gerry Scullion: the way, I noticed.

[00:30:13] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. So, so

[00:30:15] that is, that is the thing that I wanted to say. Not belonging has been

[00:30:20] suspect.

[00:30:21] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:30:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: Um, and go ahead.

[00:30:24] Gerry Scullion: And it's on

[00:30:25] that, like, whenever we ask people that question, they're

[00:30:30] looking to build up a sort of a tapestry of safeness of safety.

[00:30:34] Gerry Scullion: Like saying, okay,

[00:30:35] I can understand a little bit about them. And the second thing on that point

[00:30:40] was whenever I, and I've been like literally your biggest kinda supporter

[00:30:45] telling everyone about this, this book. Okay. Um, and when I say to them, they

[00:30:50] say, well, what is it? And I says, well, it's usually the sense of just not feeling connected or

[00:30:55] belonging.

[00:30:55] Gerry Scullion: And I said it to one of my, um, my son's

[00:31:00] friend's dads who were in the community as we were watching the football training going on.

[00:31:05] And I noticed just a small little kind of facial reaction that I was like,

[00:31:10] they may perceive that as being, um, I, I'm not

[00:31:15] appreciative of feeling welcome. And it's one of the, the slights that I've

[00:31:20] noticed for people kind of saying, oh, Jerry doesn't belong.

[00:31:22] Gerry Scullion: Like, and they cannot, they, they can't

[00:31:25] believe it. Almost like they've got some sort of restriction bias that's

[00:31:30] happening where they're like, really? Like, why wouldn't you feel like you belong? And

[00:31:35] it's almost like it's a slight. What do you think is happening in that

[00:31:40] scenario? And I know it's hypothetical 'cause you can't put yourself in my shoes, but when you say to

[00:31:45] people that you struggle with the sense of belonging in the world, um,

[00:31:50] it just seems to have this kind of.

[00:31:52] Gerry Scullion: Like shocking factor, like how can you

[00:31:55] not feel like you belong?

[00:31:57] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. But you know, I, I'll, I'll

[00:32:00] answer in a slightly different way.

[00:32:01] Gerry Scullion: Hmm.

[00:32:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: You

[00:32:05] see, one of the gifts of not belonging

[00:32:10] is that you really don't need to, um, lead your life

[00:32:15] by consensus, by book, by, uh, the group

[00:32:20] validation.

[00:32:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:32:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: So, you know, I'll give you a funny story.

[00:32:25]

[00:32:25] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, if you don't mind, I don't know how much time we have, but ah,

[00:32:27] Gerry Scullion: let's go.

[00:32:28] Dr Rami Kaminski: Okay. I'm, it's

[00:32:29] Gerry Scullion:

[00:32:30] Friday,

[00:32:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: I I time. So here's the, here's what

[00:32:35] maybe we should, I mean, it's later by you, but anyhow, you

[00:32:40] know, I must say, I know it's corny, but my most favorite, favorite drink.

[00:32:45] His guness and I in Dublin once made a very

[00:32:50] big full of ice after a few.

[00:32:53] Dr Rami Kaminski: But, um,

[00:32:55] so, you know, the story is as false. I go, I,

[00:33:00] I like, you know, as, as an introvert, I like to be, you know,

[00:33:05] quirky.

[00:33:07] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:07] Dr Rami Kaminski: I think it's, it's, um, it's a,

[00:33:10] it's a mechanism to deal with life. So I'm, I'm, I'm really a

[00:33:15] very serious, you know, professor and live normal life, someone

[00:33:20] bohemian live with a musician, but, but I like to

[00:33:25] be quirky and to say crazy things sometimes just so it deflects, you know, I say, you

[00:33:30] know, Kaminsky is a character I sometimes safe, you know?

[00:33:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. I mean,

[00:33:35] so I came to one of the lectures one day and I said, guys.

[00:33:40] It was a group of residents. And I said, I have great

[00:33:45] news. And they said, what? I said, I found out that I

[00:33:50] can fly. And they say, what? I said, yeah, I

[00:33:55] can fly. I can fly like a bird. I can, you know, I won't

[00:34:00] really. I said, yeah. And they said, well, show us.

[00:34:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: And

[00:34:05] I said, no, no, no. I, I didn't really haven't tried it yet. I just know I can

[00:34:10] do it. And they said, what do you mean? And I said, you know,

[00:34:15] so long as I don't need to convince anyone

[00:34:20] that I can fly, okay. And I just say this

[00:34:25] to myself, I can enjoy for the rest of my life, the possibility that I can

[00:34:30] fly. I don't need convince you.

[00:34:32] Dr Rami Kaminski: I don't need to show you, and I don't need to convince

[00:34:35] myself because I already decided. So I'm gonna go on, on a fifth floor

[00:34:40] window and try to fly, you know? But I walk around with this wonderful sense

[00:34:45] of being able to fly one day if I want.

[00:34:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:34:48] Dr Rami Kaminski: of course. It's just a

[00:34:50] metaphor, but the idea is that there's really no reason to think about yourself.

[00:34:54] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[00:34:55] Something that is because of some sort of, uh, outside Morris or

[00:35:00] ideas. So if people say to me, what do you mean you don't belong? I say, I don't belong.

[00:35:05] And they say, how can you not belong? I say, well, I can't. You know? I, I,

[00:35:10] yeah. And, and that is my advice to all

[00:35:15] introverts in the world and other people, and not just introverts, is

[00:35:20] so long as you don't have to convince anyone about anything.

[00:35:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: You

[00:35:25] can feel and think, whatever you. It's when you start to convince them and they say, what

[00:35:30] do you mean? No, you know, that's what I say to people, you know, how, what do you mean? You just wrote it?

[00:35:35] Yeah, I just wrote it. You know?

[00:35:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:35:38] Dr Rami Kaminski: You don't like it.

[00:35:40] I'm sorry. You know,

[00:35:41] Gerry Scullion: that's the way it is.

[00:35:43] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Go ahead.

[00:35:44] Gerry Scullion: So

[00:35:45] you mentioned about, about belonging and like,

[00:35:50] I, I struggle with belonging as a, as a kind of a thing

[00:35:55] because I don't, I've, I don't believe I've ever really felt it. Like, you know, when I look at my

[00:36:00] own life from people who don't identify as

[00:36:05] introvert, what does belonging mean to them?

[00:36:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: Belonging to them means that

[00:36:10] they're part of a group, you know?

[00:36:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:36:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: It could be all kinds

[00:36:15] of groups. Uh, it could be your family, it could be your village, whatever. Or it could be,

[00:36:20] you know, people that. Believe in this or that, and all over the

[00:36:25] world nowadays, the possibilities of groups is, uh, you

[00:36:30] know, not limited to almost anything.

[00:36:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:36:32] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so

[00:36:35] the, you know, for me,

[00:36:40] the idea of belonging is not about

[00:36:45] connection.

[00:36:46] Dr Rami Kaminski: I think many people confuse connection with

[00:36:50] belonging. The only difference between me and other people in my

[00:36:55] everyday life is that I don't have friends just

[00:37:00] because I happen to work with them for 20 years. Or for me, a friend

[00:37:05] is someone that I choose as a friend.

[00:37:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:37:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so.

[00:37:10] And you know, that is also something that sometimes cause problems, you know, because I

[00:37:15] am affable and nice guy, you know, people like me, I'm like them, you know?

[00:37:20]

[00:37:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: And, but I don't consider them as

[00:37:25] friends, much like I don't consider another woman. As you know, my wife,

[00:37:30] you know, I love my wife and we've been together for many years and

[00:37:35] you know, I chose her and she chose me. We not own each other, we don't

[00:37:40] belong to each other, but we have a very deep connection.

[00:37:43] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:37:44] Dr Rami Kaminski: So off

[00:37:45] of us, the only thing that is different is that you probably, you may have

[00:37:50] political ideas and you know, so, but ideologies, but you don't

[00:37:55] belong to a movement. You're unlikely to be going out in on

[00:38:00] barricades or what you do. What introverts do is

[00:38:05] being a canary in a coal mine. You know,

[00:38:09] Gerry Scullion: I love it.

[00:38:10]

[00:38:10] Gerry Scullion: And, and one of the things where I said, I feel seen because, you know, in

[00:38:15] a, in a world of joiners, as you say in the cover of the book, whenever, um, somebody may

[00:38:20] have expressed, uh, a kind of an interest to become a friend or whatever it was, and I'm like, well, I, I don't

[00:38:25] wanna be friends. Like, you know, I always thought that might have been me just being weird.

[00:38:29] Gerry Scullion: Okay. But as

[00:38:30] you said, when you're an introvert, you very carefully select who you let in into

[00:38:35] your world. And now that I know that it doesn't feel

[00:38:40] as, uh, as weird, I guess, or as awkward, uh, as

[00:38:45] I would've felt before knowing this book. So I,

[00:38:50] I thank you for that reassurance because, um, I, I, I do come up with some

[00:38:55] challenges when I tell people about it.

[00:38:56] Gerry Scullion: Like I say, listen, this is, this is the way, uh,

[00:39:00] I feel about these scenarios and they don't feel, and I say, well, that's okay. That's okay. You can feel

[00:39:05] that. And for me, in those scenarios. It's reassuring. And I

[00:39:10] think that's the, the biggest testament of, uh, the validity of the

[00:39:15] research that's, that's contained within that.

[00:39:17] Gerry Scullion: Um, I have a few other questions that I wanna

[00:39:20] ask you about. Like, our listeners are primarily human-centered design, uh, and

[00:39:25] service design practitioners. And what that means is we help organizations

[00:39:30] identify the, the true thing that people are looking to get out of an organization,

[00:39:35] albeit a, a government, to ensure that the services, the public services that they're

[00:39:40] accessing to complete a task or a job that they want to get done, whether that be

[00:39:45] your tax payment to your healthcare, that it's equitable and it's fair, and it's ultimately

[00:39:50] easy to use and accessible for all now that we kind of, uh, have a

[00:39:55] better understanding of otherness.

[00:39:58] Gerry Scullion: Um, and as you said, it's a

[00:40:00] natural part of, of being a human. How might

[00:40:05] organizations, whether that's institutions or workplaces, how might they

[00:40:10] design environments that value, um, the difference rather than suppress it?

[00:40:15]

[00:40:17] Dr Rami Kaminski: That's, that's a very, very

[00:40:20] important question. Um, and I, I don't think that I can

[00:40:25] answer off the top of my head because in

[00:40:27] Gerry Scullion: 20 words or less, rammy, please

[00:40:30]

[00:40:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: gonna shoot myself.

[00:40:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, no. The, I, I, I say why?

[00:40:35] Because thing is, I've always thought about it from the other way around. So,

[00:40:39] Gerry Scullion: okay,

[00:40:39] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[00:40:40] where's an vert? What are the work situation

[00:40:45] or environment? What is the work environment that, you know, helps you to thrive? You know?

[00:40:50] Yeah. Which I have all kinds of ideas about. Um, how

[00:40:55] does a organization, an organization, uh.

[00:41:00]

[00:41:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: Organize their, their

[00:41:05] services, let's say. So they're human friendly, you know?

[00:41:08] Gerry Scullion: Mm.

[00:41:09] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[00:41:10] Um, I don't think it has, you know, it has to do

[00:41:15] a lot about, I thinks,

[00:41:18] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:41:18] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I know it for a

[00:41:20] fact, you know, I don't want to take your time on that, but I, I'll tell

[00:41:25] you, I, I write it on in the book, so it's about the second chance program

[00:41:30] that I, I once got.

[00:41:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so the idea is as follows, and I'll

[00:41:35] say it very quickly, there's a third of the schizophrenic patients

[00:41:40] are called treatment non-responders, because no matter what you do, they

[00:41:45] don't respond to treatment, remain symptomatic, and end up oftentimes

[00:41:50] in long-term hospitals. And so. I had the

[00:41:55] schizophrenia, I was running the schizophrenia center, a research center at Mount Sinai,

[00:42:00] right.

[00:42:00] Dr Rami Kaminski: Prestigious felt very good about, and I wanted to

[00:42:05] dedicate my life to people that are not responders

[00:42:10] and PET scan everything that, you know, we could throw

[00:42:15] with, um, technology. And then one day I realized that I'm

[00:42:20] making a terrible mistake, which is, it's really not the patients

[00:42:25] who do not respond, the patients are not the wrong thing.

[00:42:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's the

[00:42:30] medications, you know, and they don't respond to

[00:42:35] the same medications that work for 70% of the patients.

[00:42:40] But it's not because they don't want to respond, it's because that's not the medication for that.

[00:42:44] Gerry Scullion:

[00:42:45] Yeah.

[00:42:45] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, percent. And without getting into a very, very deep,

[00:42:50] uh, discussion, I started, I decided to start something called the Second Chance

[00:42:55] Program, which is going to be going to hospitals where people are

[00:43:00] housed for sometimes over 2030.

[00:43:02] Dr Rami Kaminski: So I'm sure in Ireland it happens the same way.

[00:43:05] Um, and revisit their condition. I mean,

[00:43:10] sometimes they've been there for 20 years and things have changed, you know, in terms of medication, but they never

[00:43:15] get a refresh. Uh, look, their situation. But the

[00:43:20] interesting part was, and that's what I wanted to say. It, it, it, I did it.

[00:43:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: I, I,

[00:43:25] that's why I became the, uh, chief psychiatrist. I went to Albany, which.

[00:43:30] You don't know, but it's like a very not nice place to live.

[00:43:35] Um, and that's the, uh, capital of the state of New York.

[00:43:40] And, and, and did it. That's a long story. But, but the interesting thing was,

[00:43:45] and that is what I wanted to say, is that I had almost

[00:43:50] everyone around me, even though I didn't ask anything for it.

[00:43:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: I didn't ask for extra money,

[00:43:55] uh, funding or I said, let's see if we can do it as part of the

[00:44:00] work. Natural.

[00:44:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:44:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: I would say

[00:44:05] everyone almost fiercely tried to convince me

[00:44:10] that not to do it because it's not gonna work. And

[00:44:15] you know, luckily, even though I was much younger, uh, maybe

[00:44:20] brazen, I dunno, but luckily I didn't.

[00:44:22] Dr Rami Kaminski: I'm not, that is

[00:44:25] never for me a reasonable to do it. You know? So, and I did it in very,

[00:44:30] very successful all over the world, and, you know, yeah. I, I, I've been

[00:44:35] out of it for 20 years from, from this project. Yeah. It's been going on

[00:44:40] very well, and, and it made sense, you know, and now nobody, I mean, it's a very different

[00:44:45] way of looking at schizophrenic patients because you don't blame them for not responding.

[00:44:49] Gerry Scullion:

[00:44:50] Absolutely.

[00:44:51] Dr Rami Kaminski: And that is what Ultras can do. You could, you could

[00:44:55] look at the world in a different way. So let's say someone like you,

[00:45:00] you walk into a situation and you say to yourself, everyone

[00:45:05] says the water cooler needs to be here. I'm just stupid example.

[00:45:09] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:10]

[00:45:10] Dr Rami Kaminski: But I see that, you know, and because what

[00:45:15] happens is once you belong to a group.

[00:45:17] Dr Rami Kaminski: And there is a consensus about something

[00:45:20] you may live the rest of your life, let's say 60 more years,

[00:45:25] never questioning it, you know? And that is the problem. Allbirds always

[00:45:30] question it.

[00:45:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:45:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: Not because, yeah, go ahead.

[00:45:33] Gerry Scullion: No, I was gonna say that

[00:45:35] the 10 characteristics that I kind of pulled out, a lot of them fall into the

[00:45:40] criteria of what I do for a living, which is why I, I went for dinner

[00:45:45] with my best friend from school recently, and he was like, you're the only person I know

[00:45:50] who does something for a job that truly loves it.

[00:45:54] Gerry Scullion:

[00:45:55] And, um, I feel blessed in many ways that I, I followed my own path in service

[00:46:00] design, but a lot of the characteristics that you speak about there

[00:46:05] are intrinsic to service designers. So I believe there's a lot of people listening to this

[00:46:10] that may. Identify as other, uh, and it's something that

[00:46:15] I wanted to call out, hence why I was like, so interested in getting you on the podcast.

[00:46:19] Gerry Scullion: Now, one of the

[00:46:20] key skills, one of many key skills as a researcher is the,

[00:46:25] um, I guess accessing empathy if you want. Like, I'm, I'm not a major

[00:46:30] lover of, of the word empathy in, in design, but we talk a

[00:46:35] lot about trying to understand the other, uh, and

[00:46:40] I guess I'd keen to understand, um, does true

[00:46:45] empathy require us to connect with our own otherness first?

[00:46:49] Gerry Scullion:

[00:46:50] So, is otherness, does it exist in everybody? Is is that, that's the

[00:46:55] question

[00:46:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: that is, well, I can answer in

[00:47:00] two ways. It's very good. You ask very, very good questions, Gary.

[00:47:03] Gerry Scullion: Thank you.

[00:47:05]

[00:47:05] Dr Rami Kaminski: I'm not surprised, but still. So two things. First of all, I think we're all.

[00:47:10] You know, you know, we're all born

[00:47:15] non belongers and we need to be taught to belong.

[00:47:19] Dr Rami Kaminski: And even more so,

[00:47:20] as I said, we need to be taught to, to belong to. And,

[00:47:25] uh, so that is one of the things that, you know, non belongers,

[00:47:30] uh,

[00:47:30] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:47:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: just, and, and so obviously, you know, I say to

[00:47:35] people sometimes people are not com or communal, but you know, free

[00:47:40] thinkers and, uh, thoughtful people. And I don't have to be an introvert to be a free thinker,

[00:47:45] but they, they, I ask them, and you know, I say, why don't you try

[00:47:50] like meditation 15 minutes, try to sit back and think about

[00:47:55] what would've.

[00:48:00]

[00:48:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: Eight groups and what would've happened had you not belonged them. You know,

[00:48:05] just trying to fantasize how it used to be. You know, when we

[00:48:10] were young, very young and totally un

[00:48:15] littered by the Morris and so, so forth. We were just floating there

[00:48:20] and being, you know, I don't know what, how we were, because in a preverbal,

[00:48:25] you know, I, by the way, that's another thing I write about thats are

[00:48:30] much easier for me to have preverbal thinking.

[00:48:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: I don't necessarily

[00:48:35] have to think in words. I can again talk about it for a long time. And if you

[00:48:40] start thinking about, you'll see that a lot of your thought, because most people think in words. And

[00:48:45] so what happens is that let, let's say the word love, you know, it's so

[00:48:50] bastardized. You know, I love my car, I love my wife, I love my children, I love

[00:48:55] sunset.

[00:48:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's, you know, those words are meaningless. And

[00:49:00] always unsatisfying, you know, in, in that way. Um, but

[00:49:05] what the, what the people who don't belong, uh, what they can

[00:49:10] teach, uh, the other people is

[00:49:15] if something doesn't work, let's say in an organization,

[00:49:20] they, many consultants, you

[00:49:25] know, I can tell you a joke about consultants, but it's a little bit, uh, of colors.

[00:49:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: So

[00:49:30] maybe off, off, but, uh,

[00:49:31] Gerry Scullion: take that off, Mike.

[00:49:34] Dr Rami Kaminski: But, um,

[00:49:35] you know, you get consultants and, uh, they come and they, uh, you know,

[00:49:40] they have consultants, uh, handbook and consultants, this, and, and everybody

[00:49:45] has to be, you know, 20% this. And introverts

[00:49:50] actually see something that nobody ever, nobody, I

[00:49:55] mean, that everyone saw, but they didn't.

[00:49:57] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, think about it this way. We

[00:50:00] live, most people live with, uh, partial blindness. You know,

[00:50:05] we add blind spots to our vision of the world

[00:50:10] unnecessarily. So just because we want to be like everyone else, you know?

[00:50:15] And when you don't be like everyone else and when you cannot be even

[00:50:20] more so, I'm not a real, you know, counterculture or

[00:50:25] something like that.

[00:50:25] Dr Rami Kaminski: You look at my life, there's nothing about any, you don't do drugs. I don't mean

[00:50:30] nothing that is unusual about me except for the fact that I don't belong and I don't do things

[00:50:35] and I don't see things like everyone else does.

[00:50:38] Gerry Scullion: God, I love that. Yeah.

[00:50:40] I love the, the blind reference, like all these things that we carry with

[00:50:45] us, like being able to see the full picture is one of the,

[00:50:50] the blessings that I had.

[00:50:52] Gerry Scullion: You know, when I started to see a

[00:50:55] psychologist and then a psychotherapist. Um, and one of the, the pieces that

[00:51:00] I often question to my own psychotherapist is

[00:51:05] this, um, this ability to reflect that I have, uh, that I've

[00:51:10] learned, but also it's a frustration that

[00:51:15] others don't go on this journey too. And the ability to be able to

[00:51:20] enter, um, therapy if you want.

[00:51:22] Gerry Scullion: That's the term the Americans use.

[00:51:25] Um, and this struggle that I have, like why wouldn't, why can't others

[00:51:30] go on this journey as well to learn more about themselves? 'cause I believe that's one of the most powerful things that you

[00:51:35] can go on as a human and really understanding your mind and

[00:51:40] understanding our own position within the systems

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:43] Gerry Scullion: That we're part of.

[00:51:45] Um, and I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Like, you know, like. How

[00:51:50] it's probably not our place to encourage people to go on their own journey. Everyone's their own person. I get that.

[00:51:55] But I'd love to get your thoughts on what might be holding people

[00:52:00] back and what can we do to, I guess, uh, open up the

[00:52:05] channels a little bit more for people to become more self-reflective in terms of what they bring to the systems and so,

[00:52:10] and, and culture and society and so forth.

[00:52:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Well, I, I'll answer. I like to always give

[00:52:15] a, a vivid example. I think it, you know, so I'll, I'll give you an

[00:52:20] example. I have a patient who is autistic.

[00:52:24] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: He

[00:52:25] suffers from, I mean, he's very intelligent, uh, but his communication

[00:52:30] is, you know, flawed. And he is a great

[00:52:35] guy, and I like him a lot.

[00:52:40]

[00:52:40] Dr Rami Kaminski: He said to me one day. So I, when we first started, he was

[00:52:45] very, um, not suspicious, but as a guarded, you know, and I know it

[00:52:50] because when somebody has seen 10 psychiatrists, the 11th psychiatrist is already

[00:52:55] tainted with everything possible. You know, I'm used to it. So I saw him and

[00:53:00] um, I said, and he said, you know, blah, blah.

[00:53:02] Dr Rami Kaminski: I said, you know, I'm

[00:53:05] a specialist on outsiders. I said, I actually

[00:53:10] wrote a book about it. He later he did? Yeah. And he said, yeah. And he said,

[00:53:15] really? I said, yeah, here's the book, you know? And he said, oh,

[00:53:20] he didn't read it, but he went home and the next week he came and he said, you know what?

[00:53:25] I just realized something.

[00:53:28] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I said, what? He said, I'm

[00:53:30] just not a joiner. I'm not a joiner. I'm not a joiner.

[00:53:35] I said, yes, you're not a joiner. I'm also not the joiner. I said. He said, you know what,

[00:53:40] Dr. Kaminski, I wanna tell you something. And that is, I get goosebumps what I think about because it's so beautiful.

[00:53:45] He said, you are the first psychiatrist, and he's, he is in his

[00:53:50] late twenties.

[00:53:50] Dr Rami Kaminski: He started seeing psychiatrist, the age of three. He

[00:53:55] said, you're the only psychiatrist, the first psychiatrist, that doesn't try

[00:54:00] to get me to fit in. Wow.

[00:54:05] And that is, that is the secret. And by the way, accepting all of my patients. I never

[00:54:10] try to get, I mean, it's, it's a journey that you have yourself. The

[00:54:15] idea that you know, you have a host of people that cover the same

[00:54:20] territory as you because they were born.

[00:54:22] Dr Rami Kaminski: It means meaningless. If you

[00:54:25] wanna be a good therapist and a good psychiatrist. In my opinion,

[00:54:30] your aim is not, should not be trying to get someone to fit in.

[00:54:35] But rather to, you know, be able to, um, you know, look at their

[00:54:40] own, um, issues or anything that they need to.

[00:54:45] And that is what is very important about empathy.

[00:54:49] Dr Rami Kaminski: That is for

[00:54:50] Yeah. Because most people offer

[00:54:55] the kind of empathy that is very, um,

[00:55:00] shallow. Yeah. And we actually ask each other apo communion

[00:55:05] say, put my, put yourself in my shoes. What? That's a big

[00:55:10] mistake because you'd still be Gary in my shoes. You know, you're not

[00:55:14] Gerry Scullion:

[00:55:15] Yeah.

[00:55:15] Dr Rami Kaminski: Me. And so, and actually if you're in my shoes, you may start

[00:55:20] thinking, if I were him, I would've done it better.

[00:55:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know? And so people,

[00:55:25]

[00:55:25] Gerry Scullion: okay. Yeah.

[00:55:27] Dr Rami Kaminski: The empathy that an can bring is

[00:55:30] becoming.

[00:55:35] If you even have 20 seconds where you eliminate yourself and

[00:55:40] you stop existing with your preconceived notions and bullshit

[00:55:45] and just look at the person and listen to them and try to see the world really through their

[00:55:50] eyes, not you looking through their eyes.

[00:55:53] Dr Rami Kaminski: They,

[00:55:55] you can be understand the person amazingly well, and you can always say

[00:56:00] something that will be at least corresponding to how they

[00:56:05] really feel, you know?

[00:56:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:56:07] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I think that is, that is, that's very

[00:56:09] Gerry Scullion: powerful.

[00:56:10] I just wanna know that question. Like, you know, we've spoken about otherness, we've spoken about

[00:56:15] belonging, um, the world we're in right now, it seems like

[00:56:20] there's the, the gap is getting bigger.

[00:56:22] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Um, and I'd love

[00:56:25] to hear from you, like what, what gives you hope at the moment that we're moving towards a

[00:56:30] world that really celebrates. Difference rather than fear.

[00:56:35]

[00:56:36] Dr Rami Kaminski: Well, the assumption is that

[00:56:38] Gerry Scullion: there's hope.

[00:56:39] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[00:56:40] There is hope. Yeah.

[00:56:40] Gerry Scullion: Please tell me there's hope.

[00:56:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: There is hope. There is hope, I promise you. Uh,

[00:56:45] but if

[00:56:45] Gerry Scullion: not, just lie.

[00:56:48] Dr Rami Kaminski: But, uh, yeah. I mean,

[00:56:50] I tell you, the problem is as false. I think that

[00:56:55] that, um, you know, obviously with,

[00:57:00] uh, internet and soft support, um, it's, you know, the, it's

[00:57:05] easier to belong to a group or to find someone, you know?

[00:57:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah.

[00:57:10] So, and I think that actually the world is becoming more and more conducive

[00:57:15] to tribalism rather than the other way around, you know? Yeah.

[00:57:18] Gerry Scullion: Radicalization as well.

[00:57:20]

[00:57:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Well, but that's, but you see, that is the problem that we have, is that

[00:57:25] I think that one of the things that makes me happy.

[00:57:30] Literally, you know, the book just came out three months ago and

[00:57:35] the, the, the conversation changed in a, in a, in a very strange way.

[00:57:38] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, I did not

[00:57:40] think it's going to become so quote unquote hot and everybody is going to talk about

[00:57:45] it, and there's going to be so much buzz. And I, I didn't think so. I mean, I

[00:57:50] certainly did not, I mean, I'm happy, but I didn't write it this way. But the

[00:57:55] interesting thing, which I said to people before, and I say to you too, is that

[00:58:00] interestingly, the idea that of

[00:58:05] emotional self-sufficiency and not fitting in

[00:58:09] Gerry Scullion:

[00:58:10] mm-hmm.

[00:58:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: The Zuckerberg universe is

[00:58:15] restfulness, you know, you should always fit in,

[00:58:20] you know, there is a group and you have friends, you know, you have

[00:58:25] 2000 friends.

[00:58:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: The idea

[00:58:30] that there are going to be many young people that get excited by

[00:58:35] the idea of emotional freedom, of being untethered to the group

[00:58:40] and thinking for yourself and perhaps not needing other people to counsel you

[00:58:45] all the time. It's, that is the thing that gives me some hope. You know, it's

[00:58:50] very interesting.

[00:58:50] Dr Rami Kaminski: I, I had not expected it. I thought most people

[00:58:55] would, I mean, maybe most people would poo it, you know, that's okay. But I, I didn't think it's going to be

[00:59:00] exciting to people that are, you know, just

[00:59:05] reading about. So, yeah, absolutely. Who knows? Maybe, maybe we should, and I'm not saying it in a

[00:59:10] self-serving way, but, or maybe it's self-serving, but, but I do think so it's,

[00:59:15] we really should exfo the idea of having some people that see things in a

[00:59:20] different way.

[00:59:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, are they right? Are they, maybe not, but.

[00:59:25] It's a different way because currently, I mean, when you look what's

[00:59:30] happening, let's say in the United States now, you know the thing that I

[00:59:35] find to be very, very puzzling

[00:59:40] is beyond, you know, the Trumpian

[00:59:45] dystopia and you, the thing we have now ice, you know, those

[00:59:50] people that are, and they go on the street with a full

[00:59:55] regalia.

[00:59:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you think they're commandos in Somalia or something and they jump

[01:00:00] on, you know, little old lady that is, happens to be, uh,

[01:00:05] undocumented immigrant. And so from, they, they

[01:00:10] handcuff them, they throw them on the floor, they take them away without any ability to

[01:00:15] call anybody. And you know, they wanted like Mexican people to send to the

[01:00:20] Sudan.

[01:00:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know? Now the fact that.

[01:00:25] Somebody like Trump can have people that are willing to do those things. Uh, we've seen

[01:00:30] broad history. It's not unusual, but, you know,

[01:00:35] there are many people I've never seen a, an ice

[01:00:40] uh, operation, but there are many people that do, you know, and

[01:00:45] you know, if you stop the ice, let's say I jump on the ice person and

[01:00:50] not beat them, but stand passively with three other people and not

[01:00:55] allow them to take this person out or take the person, which some people do, and

[01:01:00] we have done in a way, take them into our house.

[01:01:03] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you cannot come in and

[01:01:05] take them away. Why is it that everybody doesn't do it? You know,

[01:01:10] there really no, there's no real danger. What, what's gonna happen maybe in the

[01:01:15] future as that why you be executed for trying to help them and you know

[01:01:20] why it is. That is my, my theory. It's because

[01:01:25] the people that walk around in America and they see the

[01:01:30] ice people attacking a Mexican immigrant,

[01:01:35] they cannot help because of this, you know,

[01:01:40] teaching us that we have, we belong to a group, they, they feel

[01:01:45] is an unconscious relationship in connection to the

[01:01:50] American agents, ICE agents than the Mexican.

[01:01:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:01:55]

[01:01:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: There's no other way to explain it, you know? Uh, why don't you, you know, when you look at,

[01:02:00] there's, if you, if you look at, uh, YouTube and do

[01:02:05] Berlin, the last days, you know,

[01:02:08] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[01:02:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: 12 years

[01:02:10] after everybody ran around and was happy and, you know, whatever.

[01:02:15] The rubble, you know, millions of people have been killed.

[01:02:19] Dr Rami Kaminski: And, you know, little

[01:02:20] things like, imagine you wanna do your dissertation and you'll never be able to finish it because of World War ii.

[01:02:25] I mean, the things that people, and yet

[01:02:30] nobody said anything. You know, there were a few verts who said, like,

[01:02:35] Bonhoeffer and they killed it, you know? Yeah. And

[01:02:40] people were coed into going with those people with the

[01:02:45] Nazis.

[01:02:45] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, how can it be? Why they all, they were always

[01:02:50] a small minority.

[01:02:52] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:02:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: But not a majority. Even at the height

[01:02:55] of the World War ii, there were only 5 million outta 80 million members

[01:03:00] of the, uh, Nazi party. Wow. But, you know, it's a

[01:03:05] silent majority. Then I think, Gary, maybe it,

[01:03:10] maybe it's true. Maybe it, but I think that.

[01:03:14] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[01:03:15] If we have the ability to

[01:03:20] show that there is a validity in being a non

[01:03:25] belonger, okay. I think we can help

[01:03:30] people see, you know, that being the silent

[01:03:35] majority

[01:03:35] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:03:36] Dr Rami Kaminski: Is very, very silly.

[01:03:40] Because invariably, if you look at history everywhere,

[01:03:45] it's always those people, the group mind, the, the group

[01:03:50] thinkers, the HIV mind that had a fanatic spasm

[01:03:55] with a unrippled horrible monster at the top

[01:04:00] and they follow.

[01:04:03] Dr Rami Kaminski: And all the other people that

[01:04:05] see, I mean most, I don't know anyone. A right wing person,

[01:04:10] you know, New York City, and I'm now in my country home in Massachusetts.

[01:04:15] Most, you know, everybody's, there's no one I know that ever voted, you know,

[01:04:20] for Trump. If I did, I wouldn't probably see them again. But

[01:04:25] there many people like that in the United States, and yet they're coward into

[01:04:30] insane.

[01:04:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. And the things that are happening now is unbelievable. And, and follow the,

[01:04:35] the, the textbook, you know, uh, of dictatorships and so forth. And yet

[01:04:40] the, the silent majority don't say anything. And I think it's because they

[01:04:45] feel that there is a, you know, there's no, I mean, I don't wanna say about, you know, any

[01:04:50] other country, but they're not, there's not such thing as United States.

[01:04:54] Dr Rami Kaminski: There's not

[01:04:55] such thing as Germany or Somalia. There's no such thing as money.

[01:05:00] There's not such thing as power. All of those things are conventions

[01:05:05] that we invented. They don't exist in nature, you know,

[01:05:10] and we invented them and we abide by them

[01:05:15] mindlessly because we were taught that this is right and

[01:05:20] this is wrong with it.

[01:05:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: And just how it happens. It's like religion. They're like, it

[01:05:24] Gerry Scullion: is

[01:05:24] Dr Rami Kaminski:

[01:05:25] 800 gods. You know? Who's right? You know? Yeah. How come, you know, dare God is stronger? You

[01:05:30] know, it's silly. I mean, the whole idea is I'm not against, you know,

[01:05:35] religion. You could do whatever you want, but the idea that there is something that unites

[01:05:40] people that really doesn't, it's not there.

[01:05:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know? I want to say something, you

[01:05:45] know, Yuval Noah Harari, you know, you know him as you as a, as a, a.

[01:05:50] He's a great thinker. I highly recommend too. But he once wrote that if

[01:05:55] he, you know, went to a monkey that has a banana

[01:06:00] and say to the monkey, listen.

[01:06:05] Thousand dollars in cash. The

[01:06:10] monkey will think you're crazy or you think he's an idiot.

[01:06:13] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you wanna give him paper

[01:06:15] for a banana, you know? So, but, but that is true. That

[01:06:20] is how we think, you know, we assign value,

[01:06:25] importance, and value to things that are not, you know, for me, a flag is a piece of

[01:06:30] cloth, you know? Yeah. That's the, we imbue in

[01:06:35] symbolism, communal symbolism, things that don't exist,

[01:06:40] you know?

[01:06:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:06:40] Dr Rami Kaminski: And we are, there's, let's say you are willing to, not you,

[01:06:45] not me, but to be killed for something, you know, just because you were born there, what

[01:06:50] happened if you were, let's say, adopted at birth by,

[01:06:55] you know, Syrian parents? Okay. You probably would be Muslim and

[01:07:00] be, you know, and they'll say, oh, here's, you know, the red hand, you know,

[01:07:05] Syrian, they are actually, and you'll be Syrian.

[01:07:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: You'll kill, you know,

[01:07:10] for Syria, you'll die for, I mean, all the things. Yeah, it's, we

[01:07:15] see we're not born like this. That is my argument. And it's true. Go and

[01:07:20] look at any baby. If you find a baby that is religious, that is

[01:07:25] nationalistic, that believes in race, that wants money, you know,

[01:07:30] you go with the baby, say, here's money, gimme the bottle.

[01:07:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know,

[01:07:35]

[01:07:35] Gerry Scullion: we, we impart those things onto, onto the young.

[01:07:40] It's, it's a really, um, it's, it's a fascinating conversation. Um, Rammy,

[01:07:45] I am conscious of time. Um, but what I will do

[01:07:50] is I, I, I wrap every episode up on my podcast by thanking people

[01:07:55] for giving me their time, energy, and just their vulnerability really, because it's unscripted.

[01:08:00]

[01:08:00] Gerry Scullion: Um, I, I go with the questions that I feel to try and get as a, a

[01:08:05] natural conversation as possible. Um, but if you are listening to the podcast,

[01:08:10] I highly encourage you, even if you don't identify with otherness or, or

[01:08:15] vert. I encourage you to read this book, the, the Gift of Not Belonging. It's, it's a

[01:08:20] fantastic book.

[01:08:21] Gerry Scullion: It's, as I said, it helped me feel seen and I might do some wonders for you as well.

[01:08:25] Try and get another perspective. Rami, thank you so much for giving me all your time and energy today. It's been

[01:08:30] absolutely fascinating. I, I loved every second speaking with you. Thank you so much

[01:08:34] Dr Rami Kaminski: and

[01:08:35] let's hope it's not the last time we speak.

[01:08:36] Gerry Scullion: For sure. For sure. Rami, thank you

[01:08:40]

[01:08:45] again.

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